Backcountry Pilot • Would You Still Buy A Cessna?

Would You Still Buy A Cessna?

Technical and practical discussion about specific aircraft types such as Cessna 180, Maule M7, et al. Please read and search carefully before posting, as many popular topics have already been discussed.
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Re: Would You Still Buy A Cessna?

Goldinthecreek wrote:…. But be honest how much info on actual operating Costs do you find on the Net ?
I haven’t Found any sites where people keep a flying costs accounting on the internet.
Lots of antidotal stuff like above. But rarely even a yearly lump sum. ...


You're a big guy, sounds to me like the most practical airplane for you would be a C182.
I own a C180, very similar costs.
I (foolishly) keep track of all my aviation spending.
Here we go:
Purchased 4 years ago- $65K.
Hangar- 4 years at $1200 a year cost.
insurance- 4 years at about $1100 a year average.
Owner-assisted annuals- 4 at $350 average (plus cost of consumables & plenty of my own time).
Upgrades- approx $5-6K
Repairs- approx $1K
Plus gas, oil etc.
Hours flown- approx 380.
Total spent in 4 years- $39,946
Summary: $10K a year for 90-100 hours a years worth of flying,
works out to close to $100 a hour total costs..
More hours would be less per hour, and vice versa.

Others might have better or worse luck with their airplane,
might have or not have user-friendly IA,
and might figure their costs differently.
So YMMV.
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Re: Would You Still Buy A Cessna?

WOW Hotrod I find that very impressive!
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Re: Would You Still Buy A Cessna?

It is hard to beat a Cessna for versatility, practicality, ease of ownership and safety. They are reasonably slow, reasonably fast, carry a decent load, every mechanic knows how to maintain them, and they will bark way before they bite when operating low and slow. Airframe parts are expensive, but unlike fabric and wood, aluminum that has not been abused does not significantly deteriorate over time when properly cared for.

Insurance companies will insure them for palatable premiums.

In 20+ years and couple thousand hours of owning and operating different Cessnas, My maintenance expenses were mostly: oil, mags, plugs, cylinders, alternators, starters, tires and brakes (in about that order). I've spent far more money on upgrades than repairs over the years. Actual airframe parts usually hold up for a long time if they aren't abused, and even through some abusive behavior.

Lower-powered Cessnas, such as: 150s, 152s, 170s, 172s, 175s... aren't much fun when heavy, and can be dangerous when you need the performance that they simply cannot muster to climb over obstacles with a load on board.

The higher performance Cessnas like: 180s, 182s, 185s, 205s, 206s, 210s... are not much more fun to fly heavy than the lower powered planes, but will usually climb reasonably well if you can manage airspeed, power and engine cooling properly.

Every airplane is a LOT more fun, and delivers higher safety margins when flown light than heavy. This contrast is so significant that your decision depends on how heavily you plan to operate most of the time. You can load up a 170 or 172 to max gross weight and take off on a cool day and joy ride about at low to mid elevations as long as what you ask of it is reasonable. A 170 or 172 can be a real hoot with just the pilot and a couple hours of fuel on board. You can load up a 182 and fly around in the mountains on a cool day, and fly it light on a warm day, though high density altitude flying is seldom a fun time to be in the air.

Cessnas with more cabin volume (205s, 206s, 210s and newer 182s), which seems highly desirable given the information that you have provided, typically demand higher values on the market. You are highly unlikely to see an airworthy 206 for 40k...

The one model that seems to be an exception to this is the early 210s. The cabins are very roomy, and they have big bore continentals, which pull pretty hard to get a load moving. The lower acquisition costs of these planes are probably due to having a reputation as a maintenance hog of an airplane. 470s, 520s and 550 Continentals are good dependable engines, but will typically cost quite a bit more to feed and maintain than a Lycoming 320 or 360. The landing gear may also be expensive to maintain, and big tires are forbidden because they will not fit in the gear wells. They have decent short field performance, but no practical rough surface capability.

If I were in your situation, and I wanted to bring the family along often, I would probably be looking at late model 182s or early 210s. If a tight budget is mandatory, I would get a 170 or 172 and accept that it is never going to be a family station wagon.
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Re: Would You Still Buy A Cessna?

If you're a big guy, and don't at least go sit in an Aeronca Sedan and consider it, you're missing out. So much more room than anything else in it's class.

I'm 6'3", a size 50L, 14 shoes. I can climb in and out with ease and have flown 8+ hours in a day in comfort.
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Re: Would You Still Buy A Cessna?

hotrod180 wrote:
Goldinthecreek wrote:…. But be honest how much info on actual operating Costs do you find on the Net ?
I haven’t Found any sites where people keep a flying costs accounting on the internet.
Lots of antidotal stuff like above. But rarely even a yearly lump sum. ...


You're a big guy, sounds to me like the most practical airplane for you would be a C182.
I own a C180, very similar costs.
I (foolishly) keep track of all my aviation spending.
Here we go:
Purchased 4 years ago- $65K.
Hangar- 4 years at $1200 a year cost.
insurance- 4 years at about $1100 a year average.
Owner-assisted annuals- 4 at $350 average (plus cost of consumables & plenty of my own time).
Upgrades- approx $5-6K
Repairs- approx $1K
Plus gas, oil etc.
Hours flown- approx 380.
Total spent in 4 years- $39,946
Summary: $10K a year for 90-100 hours a years worth of flying,
works out to close to $100 a hour total costs..
More hours would be less per hour, and vice versa.

Others might have better or worse luck with their airplane,
might have or not have user-friendly IA,
and might figure their costs differently.
So YMMV.


That's great to share Hotrod, good on you!

I would hasten to add for the OP's benefit, don't forget to factor in the cost of the engine / prop. As an owner, you are chewing through TBO hours on ~$50,000 worth of equipment firewall forward (depending on the plane).

If you want to keep the plane long term or sell and recover your money, you need to factor in the lost value / replacement cost of the engine and propeller for your long term budget. However you look at it, it's costing you real money per hour.

On the other hand, if you just want to be broke and go flying *(like me) then pay the bills when they arrive, and forget the rest!

Jokes aside, I would be happy to share my costs, but it's a poor comparison because it's a brand new homebuilt.
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Re: Would You Still Buy A Cessna?

Goldinthecreek wrote:
Mission.
Cheep timebuilder.
Mission Revisit my youth flying and camping remote Alaska for various government agencies.( backcountry flying thats why I'm here)
Mission sightseeing rides for family, I'm nearly 300 pounds and will fly alone a lot but I'm Likely to also fly with my son 280 pounds or wife, (aint telling want to eat here again) so I want the ability for 4 seats and 800 pounds in cabin 550 in the front seats.
Ok any thoughts on what you would buy?


Gold,

Not wanting to be rude:

If you want to build time and do it on a budget:

1. Get in shape - lose some pounds. The lease expensive way to give your airplane better performance.
2. Buy a straight tail 172...get a bunch of time in it and figure out your next step.

You will get in shape so you can fly longer in your life. You will buy a plane that fits your current budget. It will be a good baby step towards a 182/180/185 or 205 or 206.
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Re: Would You Still Buy A Cessna?

Another word of advice. For all those that are saying find a AI who will let you do a owner assisted annual, remember that we have to make a living to. You working in my shop for a week worth of labour while I can only bill you for a few hrs doesn't pay my overhead. You think aircraft ownership is expensive, try owning a big enough hangar and all the tools required to do our job, all the while hearing how much cheaper it would be for aircraft owners if they could come help so they dont have to pay as much... makes it awful hard to justify running a business.
But my opinion is only worth what you paid for it. Take it or leave it.
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Re: Would You Still Buy A Cessna?

A1Skinner wrote:Another word of advice. For all those that are saying find a AI who will let you do a owner assisted annual, remember that we have to make a living to. You working in my shop for a week worth of labour while I can only bill you for a few hrs doesn't pay my overhead. You think aircraft ownership is expensive, try owning a big enough hangar and all the tools required to do our job, all the while hearing how much cheaper it would be for aircraft owners if they could come help so they dont have to pay as much... makes it awful hard to justify running a business.
But my opinion is only worth what you paid for it. Take it or leave it.


Everyone needs to read this twice ^^^.

My policy has always been that I will do minor tasks for an annual (remove inspection covers, cowling, change oil, etc) IF and only if my mechanic asks or invites me to. I’ve worked with mechanics who are open to same, and others who aren’t. So be it. It’s their shop and their business.

One additional point is that the shop owner is sticking his/her neck out letting you work under their roof. You get hurt there, and it could cost them dearly.

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Re: Would You Still Buy A Cessna?

A1Skinner wrote:Another word of advice. For all those that are saying find a AI who will let you do a owner assisted annual, remember that we have to make a living to. You working in my shop for a week worth of labour while I can only bill you for a few hrs doesn't pay my overhead. You think aircraft ownership is expensive, try owning a big enough hangar and all the tools required to do our job, all the while hearing how much cheaper it would be for aircraft owners if they could come help so they dont have to pay as much... makes it awful hard to justify running a business.
But my opinion is only worth what you paid for it. Take it or leave it.


All valid points, and I'd never ask to work inside someone else's shop. But there are a lot of IA's who don't operate that way. They work on a come-to-you basis, so they don't have the overhead of a big shop. My previous IA was the chief mechanic at the FSDO and wrenched in his off time for extra money. He charged and got paid a appropriate amount of money for the expertise and exposure of working on airplanes, but it wasn't anything close to shop rates. I think on a typical annual he made around $200 per hour, so I'm not loosing sleep thinking that I took advantage of him...
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Re: Would You Still Buy A Cessna?

A1Skinner wrote:Another word of advice. For all those that are saying find a AI who will let you do a owner assisted annual, remember that we have to make a living to. You working in my shop for a week worth of labour while I can only bill you for a few hrs doesn't pay my overhead. You think aircraft ownership is expensive, try owning a big enough hangar and all the tools required to do our job, all the while hearing how much cheaper it would be for aircraft owners if they could come help so they dont have to pay as much... makes it awful hard to justify running a business.
But my opinion is only worth what you paid for it. Take it or leave it.


David,
Get that 206 up and running so you can do service calls to Squamish;-) Nearest shop is 90 minutes drive from here and they are so busy it would have to be a dire emergency for me to ask for a service call.

The part where the shimmy dampener attaches to the front wheel fork failed yesterday and grounded the plane so I removed the front left wheel assembly to deliver it to their shop this morning.
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Re: Would You Still Buy A Cessna?

Battson wrote:...I would hasten to add for the OP's benefit, don't forget to factor in the cost of the engine / prop. As an owner, you are chewing through TBO hours on ~$50,000 worth of equipment firewall forward (depending on the plane). ...


Yes, my numbers don't include anything for "maintenance / overhaul reserve".
Another $20 an hour will equal $30K after a 1500 hour run to TBO.
That should cover the engine OH, but probably another 5 or 10/hour to cover prop OH etc plus misc repairs.
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Re: Would You Still Buy A Cessna?

A1Skinner wrote: Another word of advice. For all those that are saying find a AI who will let you do a owner assisted annual, remember that we have to make a living to. You working in my shop for a week worth of labour while I can only bill you for a few hrs doesn't pay my overhead. You think aircraft ownership is expensive, try owning a big enough hangar and all the tools required to do our job, all the while hearing how much cheaper it would be for aircraft owners if they could come help so they dont have to pay as much... makes it awful hard to justify running a business. But my opinion is only worth what you paid for it. Take it or leave it.


My "owner-assisted annuals" are done in my hangar.
I strip the airplane down and do the maintenance items,
then my IA buddy comes down before or after his regular work day to do the actual inspection.
Then I reassemble.
Squawks are generally addressed as they turn up, not left for the annual.
The last two annuals were done in two parts:
FWF when I did my oil change a couple weeks before the inspection was due,
then firewall aft at the end of the month.
Makes it easier for both him & me to schedule this way.
FWIW I've done owner-assisted annuals with 4 different IA's over the years.
They were fairly compensated for the amount of time they spent,
none of them had any problems with our arrangement.
In fact, I think they appreciated that my airplane wasn't in their shop tying up floor space.
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Re: Would You Still Buy A Cessna?

hotrod180 wrote:
A1Skinner wrote: Another word of advice. For all those that are saying find a AI who will let you do a owner assisted annual, remember that we have to make a living to. You working in my shop for a week worth of labour while I can only bill you for a few hrs doesn't pay my overhead. You think aircraft ownership is expensive, try owning a big enough hangar and all the tools required to do our job, all the while hearing how much cheaper it would be for aircraft owners if they could come help so they dont have to pay as much... makes it awful hard to justify running a business. But my opinion is only worth what you paid for it. Take it or leave it.


My "owner-assisted annuals" are done in my hangar.
I strip the airplane down and do the maintenance items,
then my IA buddy comes down before or after his regular work day to do the actual inspection.
Then I reassemble.
Squawks are generally addressed as they turn up, not left for the annual.
The last two annuals were done in two parts:
FWF when I did my oil change a couple weeks before the inspection was due,
then firewall aft at the end of the month.
Makes it easier for both him & me to schedule this way.
FWIW I've done owner-assisted annuals with 4 different IA's over the years.
They were fairly compensated for the amount of time they spent,
none of them had any problems with our arrangement.
In fact, I think they appreciated that my airplane wasn't in their shop tying up floor space.
That works great for you and I'm glad it does, but if every owner expected it to go that way it quickly goes south. I never said you weren't fairly compensating them, but it seems like a reoccurring theme here that when someone asks about ownership one of the first things mentioned is "find an AI that will let you do owner assisted annuals, its cheaper". Remember, cheaper isn't always better. Not saying your AI isnt doing a good job. I find an owner poking around and asking questions while I'm trying to do my job extremely distracting. No different then someone else talking to you while you are doing your walk around. Great way to miss stuff.
I'm glad it works out for you, but I still think it's a bit unfair that it seems to come up over and over again here. I don't think my post was putting anyone down, I just wanted to voice an opinion from the other end of it. If it works then great, but I dont think it should be near the top of an ownership plan.
YMMV.
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Re: Would You Still Buy A Cessna?

What’s a AI?
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Re: Would You Still Buy A Cessna?

Marmaduke wrote:What’s a AI?
Sorry. IA. We call it AME up here in the great white north.
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Re: Would You Still Buy A Cessna?

A1Skinner wrote:
hotrod180 wrote:
A1Skinner wrote: Another word of advice. For all those that are saying find a AI who will let you do a owner assisted annual, remember that we have to make a living to. You working in my shop for a week worth of labour while I can only bill you for a few hrs doesn't pay my overhead. You think aircraft ownership is expensive, try owning a big enough hangar and all the tools required to do our job, all the while hearing how much cheaper it would be for aircraft owners if they could come help so they dont have to pay as much... makes it awful hard to justify running a business. But my opinion is only worth what you paid for it. Take it or leave it.


My "owner-assisted annuals" are done in my hangar.
I strip the airplane down and do the maintenance items,
then my IA buddy comes down before or after his regular work day to do the actual inspection.
Then I reassemble.
Squawks are generally addressed as they turn up, not left for the annual.
The last two annuals were done in two parts:
FWF when I did my oil change a couple weeks before the inspection was due,
then firewall aft at the end of the month.
Makes it easier for both him & me to schedule this way.
FWIW I've done owner-assisted annuals with 4 different IA's over the years.
They were fairly compensated for the amount of time they spent,
none of them had any problems with our arrangement.
In fact, I think they appreciated that my airplane wasn't in their shop tying up floor space.
That works great for you and I'm glad it does, but if every owner expected it to go that way it quickly goes south. I never said you weren't fairly compensating them, but it seems like a reoccurring theme here that when someone asks about ownership one of the first things mentioned is "find an AI that will let you do owner assisted annuals, its cheaper". Remember, cheaper isn't always better. Not saying your AI isnt doing a good job. I find an owner poking around and asking questions while I'm trying to do my job extremely distracting. No different then someone else talking to you while you are doing your walk around. Great way to miss stuff.
I'm glad it works out for you, but I still think it's a bit unfair that it seems to come up over and over again here. I don't think my post was putting anyone down, I just wanted to voice an opinion from the other end of it. If it works then great, but I dont think it should be near the top of an ownership plan.
YMMV.


Well...owner participation in repairs and inspections is the only way it's financially possible for a LOT of people to own a airplane. Nobody's trying to put you out of business, but you don't have any inherent right to stay in business, either.

IMO anyone who pays a IA to do work they could do themselves either has more money than time, or more money than sense. Paying shop rates for the work I do myself would easily add $8~10k to my yearly flying budget, and that would be a deal breaker...as it would be for a lot of other people. I don't have any problem with a IA who refuses to do owner-assisted work, but I won't give them any business, either. We're both equally entitled to make that choice.
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Re: Would You Still Buy A Cessna?

Hammer wrote:
A1Skinner wrote:
hotrod180 wrote:
A1Skinner wrote: Another word of advice. For all those that are saying find a AI who will let you do a owner assisted annual, remember that we have to make a living to. You working in my shop for a week worth of labour while I can only bill you for a few hrs doesn't pay my overhead. You think aircraft ownership is expensive, try owning a big enough hangar and all the tools required to do our job, all the while hearing how much cheaper it would be for aircraft owners if they could come help so they dont have to pay as much... makes it awful hard to justify running a business. But my opinion is only worth what you paid for it. Take it or leave it.


My "owner-assisted annuals" are done in my hangar.
I strip the airplane down and do the maintenance items,
then my IA buddy comes down before or after his regular work day to do the actual inspection.
Then I reassemble.
Squawks are generally addressed as they turn up, not left for the annual.
The last two annuals were done in two parts:
FWF when I did my oil change a couple weeks before the inspection was due,
then firewall aft at the end of the month.
Makes it easier for both him & me to schedule this way.
FWIW I've done owner-assisted annuals with 4 different IA's over the years.
They were fairly compensated for the amount of time they spent,
none of them had any problems with our arrangement.
In fact, I think they appreciated that my airplane wasn't in their shop tying up floor space.
That works great for you and I'm glad it does, but if every owner expected it to go that way it quickly goes south. I never said you weren't fairly compensating them, but it seems like a reoccurring theme here that when someone asks about ownership one of the first things mentioned is "find an AI that will let you do owner assisted annuals, its cheaper". Remember, cheaper isn't always better. Not saying your AI isnt doing a good job. I find an owner poking around and asking questions while I'm trying to do my job extremely distracting. No different then someone else talking to you while you are doing your walk around. Great way to miss stuff.
I'm glad it works out for you, but I still think it's a bit unfair that it seems to come up over and over again here. I don't think my post was putting anyone down, I just wanted to voice an opinion from the other end of it. If it works then great, but I dont think it should be near the top of an ownership plan.
YMMV.


Well...owner participation in repairs and inspections is the only way it's financially possible for a LOT of people to own a airplane. Nobody's trying to put you out of business, but you don't have any inherent right to stay in business, either.

IMO anyone who pays a IA to do work they could do themselves either has more money than time, or more money than sense. Paying shop rates for the work I do myself would easily add $8~10k to my yearly flying budget, and that would be a deal breaker...as it would be for a lot of other people. I don't have any problem with a IA who refuses to do owner-assisted work, but I won't give them any business, either. We're both equally entitled to make that choice.
Like I said, YMMV. if you are paying $150/ hr shop rates like stated above, then yes you'll save money. Up here we can't charge rates like that. Most annuals I perform are around 2k. So 8-10k extra per year seems high. But you seem to spend a lot of $$ on your bird compared to lots of people.
Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled programming. Planes are expensive. But the most fun I can think of having is in the air. Sounds like you need to try out a Sedan like Ak is suggesting Gold. Have fun!
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Re: Would You Still Buy A Cessna?

My 2c: Supply and demand depends on price, its fundamental economics.

An example is the easiest way to explain. The exact numbers don't matter, its just for illustrative purposes:

If I charge $10,000 for an annual, I will get 10 customer per year.
If I charge $1,000 for an annual, I will get 100 customers per year.

Either way, I make the same money and have the same overhead costs (in the broadest possible terms). Although in one case I am busy as a bluebottle fly, in the other one I am bored. Of course this is too simple and quality of service and workmanship are huge factors, but the theory holds true if all other things are equal.

My point is, provided you do great work there is no right or wrong answer! Just different business models and personal preferences.

This has officially become a sub-thread. Zzz can ban me now!
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Re: Would You Still Buy A Cessna?

There is always two sides to every story;
On one hand, I think that a pilot/owner should know his plane inside and out. On those long night cross countries, it matters to me and everyone I have ever known.
But, on the other hand, if you pull up to my shop in your new Mercedes or F350 and cry about my shop rate which is significantly lower than the car dealer rates or the Bass boat you just got worked on, I'm going to go into knuckle drill mode! So if you want to open the plane and close it up, that's fine and well. You can save a few bucks here and there, but it's not a free ride at my shop.
My .02
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Re: Would You Still Buy A Cessna?

I don’t know of a single shop near me that lets people work on their own plane taking up precious floor space at their business.

All the owner assisted annuals around here happen at your own hangar, and the IA comes to you...mobile mechanic style.
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