Trying to figure out if the 170 forums are working. I haven't been able to get access.

Along those lines I will post my question here.
Any 170 guys have experience with the rudder return springs. We were looking at ours and decided to replace them because they look worn and another member said new springs improved his ground handling. When we went to look we found that we had 2 different size springs on the pedals? That didn't look right but upon ordering the new ones I found two differnent part #'s and the right one is 20 bucks while the left is only 8. I figured they should be the same size spring. Maybe not. BTW it looks like they are going to be tough to install once arriving.
Any thoughts or comments.


0310196-3 right hand
0310196-3 left hand

Not a direct answer, but a Maule has two different springs as well, so I think you did right.

The only springs my IPC shows in the whole rudder control system are the tailwheel springs #0442008. Is that what you're talking about? I have a feeling it's not.

Not much of a substitute for the 170 forums here...

Maybe I should go about building that 170 Wiki I talked about.... ?

The answer depends on what model year 170 you have.

MTV

mtv wrote:The answer depends on what model year 170 you have.

MTV

Do the '48-54 model years have the springs at the tailwheel, and '55-56 model years have the springs located at the pedals?

I've always thought 55-56 had a nice looking routing for the rudder cables in the rear, but I can't remember if there were still springs back there.

Thats a typo

-4 for the left


52 170B is what I am working on. With my limited capability with the 170 site down all I came up with was the one set of springs for all model years. Do you know any diferent?

Zane, there are two sets of springs. The springs on the tailwheel are a separate issue. you also have a set of springs buried behind and below the rudder pedals. They are called rudder return springs. Very common on small planes. Not sure what they really end up doing except causing me pain trying to replace them. The rumor is I am better off with new ones.

I am curious to compare the old to the new when they arrive.

Zane -

In addition to your tailwheel springs there are springs attached to the rudder pedal assembly, inboard from your pedals behind the tunnel, under your johnson bar. (numbers 3 and 4 on the parts schematic below.) If you pull the carpet away from the tunnel you can find little inspection panels adjacent to the rudder pedals that - once removed - will reveal the springs and their attachment points.

Good thing to know because occasionally one of them becomes dislodged from its proper hole and is lost, or slides down the assembly arm. Their function is to return the rudder to the neutral position when pedal pressure is released. If the springs are improperly installed, or one breaks, or is lost, the plane will fly as if it is out of rig - and they are one of the first things one should check if they have a 170 that is flying "crooked" (a highly technical term.)

Buzzlatka -

I'm cynical about the idea that replacing these will improve your ground handling, they are itty-bitty (another technical term) compared to the tailwheel springs. You might fly straighter though. If you go here, you can download the Cessna 170B parts manual. In it (starting on page 101 - of the original manual, not the .pdf file) you will find that, indeed, the rudder return springs on the 52 170B are two different sizes with two different part numbers. I can't remember for the life of me why - its been too long since I peeked in there - but it is either because due to design the spring attachment points are different dimensions on the right v. the left, or because greater static pull is required on one side v. the other to keep the rudder neutral in flight. So make sure you keep them straight when they arrive and attach the correct one to the correct side! I found that installing mine was not too bad, with needle nose pliers through the tunnel inspection panels, I've also seen folks try to manipulate them through a belly access panel. Hey, worked for them, but you will need someone looking through the tunnel panel to direct them!

Note the parts manual has two schematics and two parts lists for each major component, depending on your serial number. The '52 should be the first one (page 101.)




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Yep, I keep trying and no 170 site

My rudder pedals just "flop" and always have since I've had 39A. Guess that I'll be looking into getting those springs as mine has also always needed a little right rudder in cruise!!! Go figure! Is it a pain to do? And, do I need an IA to sign it off if I replace/reinstall them?

Hawkeyenfo wrote:Yep, I keep trying and no 170 site

My rudder pedals just "flop" and always have since I've had 39A. Guess that I'll be looking into getting those springs as mine has also always needed a little right rudder in cruise!!! Go figure! Is it a pain to do? And, do I need an IA to sign it off if I replace/reinstall them?

In my humble opinion you will likely see an improvement. It is a pain to do in that you will need to either remove your front seats, or be nimble enough to fold yourself through the door, across the floor in front of the front seat and jam your head against the rudder pedals to simultaneously fit your eyeball, light and needle-nose pliers through the little tunnel inspection port to thread the springs onto their guides.

Or you can wait until annual and have an A&P do it. Technically they are supposed to sign off on the work anyhow. This operation requires the skill of a surgeon maybe, or a juggler, or certainly a contortionist but it doesn't take a mechanic's knowledge to replace two simple springs - but FAR43.100 is pretty clear.

Mine is a 170A. I had to replace the return springs because one of them broke. As I remember they were all the same. I also readjusted my pedals and now they are even, before they were off. The right one was about two inches further in than the right one. It did have better ground handling after the springs were replaced.

I just replaced both my rudder return springs a month ago during annual. I have a 53'B model. Yes, they are two different lengths and also one is three times as expensive. I accessed mine though an inspection hole on the belly just aft of the fire wall. One hour, a flash light, a mirror, a skidoo spring hook and a lot of profanity and it was done!

Good luck, Paul

I'm the guy that asks the dumb questions so we all can learn.

Oh, ya another thing that will help tighten up the pedals is to swap the pilot and copilot pedals my pilot side pedal pivot holes were pretty wallowed out and the copilot side were almost new. I'd also give the whole pedal assembly a good looking over, the pedals were they pivot, also the point where they attach to the master cylinder, and the lower mater cylinder attach. I was quite suprised how it is all held together, light aluminum rods, thin plate and cotter pins.

Ya, 170 site hasn't worked for me since friday or saterday.

Paul

My pedals were pretty badly worn a few years ago. I looked at Cessna's catalog, and the price of 170 pedals took my breath away, as did all metal Cessna pedals.

But, the newest pedals offered by Cessna are some sort of VERY hard plastic material. Total of $85 for the set of four, brand new. They fit without modification, and I actually like the geometry better than the originals. If your pedals are worn, replace em with the plastic ones.

Sorry about the note on springs--I too was thinking "steering springs" as opposed to "rudder return springs".

MTV

once&futr_alaskaflyer,

I like the diagram that you inserted, unfortunately I didn't see any part numbers on that. Any chance you can see if I am correct on my part numbers for a 52B?

Thanks

buzzlatka wrote:once&futr_alaskaflyer,

I like the diagram that you inserted, unfortunately I didn't see any part numbers on that. Any chance you can see if I am correct on my part numbers for a 52B?

Thanks

I looked, you have them correct (if they haven't been superseded but seems your order went through?)

I linked to the free download of the 170B parts manual in my post above, it is an Adobe Acrobat file worth keeping on your desktop for just these types of eventualities

The springs are 2 different p/n's (p/n 030196-3 & -4 for the 1948 model) and are indeed different lengths. Reason being is that the pedal assemblies pivot off the rudder bars, which are fore and aft of each other. I believe the forward attach points for the LH/RH springs are the same fore & aft.
I am not a prolific author like MTV, but I have been published (ahem!). I wrote an article for The 170 News, "rudder return spring replacement", which was in the Q2/04 issue. If you don't have it, Assn HQ can no doubt send you a copy. I also wrote an article which was in the Q2/03 issue,"Wait and Balance", about reweighing my 170 after several years of putting it off.
A couple tips on RR spring replacement-- these may or may not be applicable to the 55 or whatever models which had a different arrangement for t/w steering linkage:
1)work (primarily) thru the peek-a-boo holes in the tunnel adjacent to the rudder pedals. You'll definitely want to remove the applicable front seat. You might even want to remove the inboard rudder pedal itself for more elbow room. Get a light shining in from one side while you work from the other side. The RH return spring is on the LH side of the airplane, and vice-versa. Reaching up from the belly hole may help you-- it didn't do much for me. Shining a light up thru there may be helpful though.
2) unhook both rudder cables at the rudder bellcrank, That way you're not fighting the t/w springs & the rudder itself.
3) You may need to readjust your rudder trim tab after spring replacement, as it's likely the new spring will be stronger or at least a different strength than the (old) one that broke.
4) I've heard that some people have used an official Cessna spring as a size/strength guide, and bought their replacement spring at the local NAPA Airmotive Store. Not strictly legal but about 2 bucks as opposed to 8 or 20.
I've gone thru this replacement procedure about 3 times- twice for a broken spring, once when one popped off. Each time, the spring broke or popped off when taxxing on rough ground with full rudder deflection.
Personally, I would not replace a spring "just because"-- wait til it breaks. If you're on a trip, it's a PITA but not the end of the world-- you just have to fly holding the rudder pedals in neutral postion. You can tell when one breaks-- that rudder pedal just wants to flop all the way aft.
Lots of guys have repaired the wallowed-out holes in the rudder pedals by welding on a washer-- cheaper than new ones.

Eric

As a tangent to the original question...anyone know why the 170 site is (still) down? Did everyone stop paying their dues?

Looks like server problems, if you try it now there a temp page that says there working on the problem??

Thanks MTV once&futr_alaskaflyer and zero.one.victor and everyone else.

Got the parts and wow does it explain a lot. First we had the wrong springs on. Who knows where they came from? Second we have always had an overpowering left rudder issue. Now looking at the springs there was a much larger spring pulling on the left rudder. Explains a lot! This should help solve our issue.

BTW here are pictures of the new springs for anyone who cares.





Zane you are not the only one who asks stupid questions.


Never knew how much I needed the 170 site till it went away.