Hello everyone,

I'm new to this forum and would like to ask for any input that's available. I appreciate any information. I'm an avid flyer of the Piper Aztec and enjoy bush flying with the Cessna 170 and 172.

We have a complete firewall forward system from a parted-out 172/180 (Lyc. O360A1A, Engine Mount, Constant Speed Propeller HC2YK1BF, Cowlings, etc.) that was installed on a 172 STC SA777CE. We would like to use this for our 172F (currently O300D). The STC options we can find are SA807CE or STC SA777CE. However, it seems impossible to reach the current owner of the Williams STC.

Does anyone know a workaround for the intended installation?

All input will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you

I'm guessing you don't have the paperwork from the parted-out airplane?
If you know the tail number, it might be helpful to get the FAA records. Only costs about $10.
Otherwise, you might look into the old Aircraft Conversion Technologies / Custom Aircraft Conversions / Texas Taildragger STC's.
Sorry but I don't know the stc numbers, and the FAA's DRS website isn't user-friendly enough for me to find them,
but their stc's included one for the 360 Lyc in the 170 & 172.
I had their stc for the 320 on a C150, and it used some avcon parts (engine mount & exhaust)
Those STC's had various owners through the years, but I believe Harry Dellicker in Porterville CA ended up with them.
Unfortunately he passed away several years ago, but I think Del Air is still in business.
Might be his son running it now.

Talk to your FSDO. They can attempt to get ahold of the owner of the STC, and they're who you'll need in your corner if contact can't be made.
John

shortfield_joe wrote:Hello everyone,

I'm new to this forum and would like to ask for any input that's available. I appreciate any information. I'm an avid flyer of the Piper Aztec and enjoy bush flying with the Cessna 170 and 172.

We have a complete firewall forward system from a parted-out 172/180 (Lyc. O360A1A, Engine Mount, Constant Speed Propeller HC2YK1BF, Cowlings, etc.) that was installed on a 172 STC SA777CE. We would like to use this for our 172F (currently O300D). The STC options we can find are SA807CE or STC SA777CE. However, it seems impossible to reach the current owner of the Williams STC.

Does anyone know a workaround for the intended installation?

All input will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you

I think STCs should become public domain after some amount of time, like everything that’s patented, and even Mickey Mouse. The Williams situation should be Exhibit #1 on why an STC should eventually be public. Everyone knows an o-360 is a brilliant engine in an old 172 or 175, yet people are stuck sending money and hoping to get a paper showing what they already know is printed on it.

It’s not hard to see why GA is dying with this kind of foolishness permanently in place.

Williams is notorious for not communicating, and apparently not delivering promised goods.

I'd talk to your FSDO, but good luck.

Keep trying Williams.....offer $$$

MTV

I would be surprised if there wasn't someone here on BCP with one of those two STC's installed on their airplane.
Hopefully one of those someones will look through their paperwork & be willing to send you copies.

hotrod180 wrote:I would be surprised if there wasn't someone here on BCP with one of those two STC's installed on their airplane.
Hopefully one of those someones will look through their paperwork & be willing to send you copies.

A copy of an STC is worthless, except for informational purposes. The FAA is prohibited from accepting a copy of an STC to fulfill the requirements for certification. And, there is a very good reason for that.

The STC is owned by a living person, so it's not "orphaned".

MTV

mtv wrote: A copy of an STC is worthless, except for informational purposes........

Those "informational purposes" were what I had in mind. It's a start.

hotrod180 wrote:

mtv wrote: A copy of an STC is worthless, except for informational purposes........

Those "informational purposes" were what I had in mind. It's a start.

It appears he has all the parts, so the big thing that's left is the paperwork. He may be able to get Williams to sell him paper, but that's really his only hope for approval. Every STC these days is assigned to a serial number airframe, and only one plane per paper.

MTV

BigBen wrote:





I think STCs should become public domain after some amount of time, like everything that’s patented, and even Mickey Mouse. The Williams situation should be Exhibit #1 on why an STC should eventually be public. Everyone knows an o-360 is a brilliant engine in an old 172 or 175, yet people are stuck sending money and hoping to get a paper showing what they already know is printed on it.

It’s not hard to see why GA is dying with this kind of foolishness permanently in place.

That's because you've obviously never forked out the money, time and effort to develop an STC.
John

hardtailjohn wrote:

BigBen wrote:





I think STCs should become public domain after some amount of time, like everything that’s patented, and even Mickey Mouse. The Williams situation should be Exhibit #1 on why an STC should eventually be public. Everyone knows an o-360 is a brilliant engine in an old 172 or 175, yet people are stuck sending money and hoping to get a paper showing what they already know is printed on it.

It’s not hard to see why GA is dying with this kind of foolishness permanently in place.

That's because you've obviously never forked out the money, time and effort to develop an STC.
John

As if it doesn’t cost money, time, and effort to develop products protected by patents.

And they expire.

FWIW - Documents on AVCON install.

Below, my dropbox. '58 C175, converted to 180hp in 70's.

file images, docs, dwgs (~20 pgs):

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/apuvpeps ... 1gapq&dl=0

MTV, this is not true. It depends on the STC language and they are not all the same. There are MANY examples of recent STCs that are most certainly NOT serial number specific. I can see both sides of this coin. When a STC becomes lost to history and no longer supported by a living person or company, and was not originally written to make sure it was serial number specific there really ought to be a process to put it into public domain.

mtv wrote:

hotrod180 wrote:

mtv wrote: A copy of an STC is worthless, except for informational purposes........

Those "informational purposes" were what I had in mind. It's a start.

It appears he has all the parts, so the big thing that's left is the paperwork. He may be able to get Williams to sell him paper, but that's really his only hope for approval. Every STC these days is assigned to a serial number airframe, and only one plane per paper.

MTV

I know this thread is a few months old but I just stumbled across it and wanted to make a it’s to protect anyone from sending Bob money.

Bob Williams (the owner of the STC) is no longer supporting the STC. Over the past 5 years or so I have had multiple friends or acquaintances send him money after he sent them bank-wire instructions and have never got anything in return. At this point if he ever does reply to you with payment instructions don’t expect anything in return. He did send me paperwork back in 2018, I haven’t heard of anyone actually getting anything from him after sending money since.

His STC’s are effectively abandoned. I’ve stopped trying to communicate with him and strongly caution anyone from sending him money even if he does communicate back at this point. He’s basically just scamming people. There are copies of all of those STC’s floating all over the internet and all the parts can be made or bought. It’s really too bad he won’t support or sell his STC to someone who will because there’s still a large market for it.

soyAnarchisto wrote:MTV, this is not true. It depends on the STC language and they are not all the same. There are MANY examples of recent STCs that are most certainly NOT serial number specific. I can see both sides of this coin. When a STC becomes lost to history and no longer supported by a living person or company, and was not originally written to make sure it was serial number specific there really ought to be a process to put it into public domain.

mtv wrote:

hotrod180 wrote:

mtv wrote: A copy of an STC is worthless, except for informational purposes........

Those "informational purposes" were what I had in mind. It's a start.

It appears he has all the parts, so the big thing that's left is the paperwork. He may be able to get Williams to sell him paper, but that's really his only hope for approval. Every STC these days is assigned to a serial number airframe, and only one plane per paper.

MTV

Years ago, STCs were in fact issued without being airframe specific. IF that is the case (and it is with this particular STC) the FAA will not authorize it to justify an installation. Finally, the FAA has become very reluctant to sign off on anything that's based on an STC, unless the identity of the airplane being modified is specified on the STC.

If I were in this position, I would try going to a DAR, and see if they can approve it.