hotrod180 wrote:...FWIW I think there must be a lot of C180/185 Club members who are computer / internet challenged...

I would think you are absolutely right, which is all the more reason the website/forum should be device and platform agnostic (apologies for getting geeky everyone).

Deep thoughts, with Zane, since one of my reluctant hobbies is web community management:

Over the years, in the course of discussions related to the stodgy luddite pilot persona, it has been suggested to me more than once that a great percentage of the most knowledgeable among us does not even dabble with these websites. That's kinda sad.

As a 170 owner, I never joined the association because I was put off by George Horn's personality. That's probably more skin off my back than his/theirs, but the point was proven, at least to me, that there are camps among us, divided by technology. Horn was the one who intimated that the majority of their membership does not use the forum (and therefore it was not a priority for him.) I'm sure the same must be true for other type clubs for classics, whose demographics tend toward the older crowd.

We exist in one section of the Venn diagram of this interest group-- The owners/members who embrace the Internet tools of a type club. There are other members who do not, and there are some of do so with great resistance and make a lot of noise about how difficult it is. After all these years, it makes perfect sense to read Hotrod admit that he only recently got a cell phone. In spite of that proud ignorance, I think you've done pretty well here Eric. I'm still working to make this particular site more mobile friendly.

Some of us have made a career out of designing products that are intended to make transition into technology by the reluctant a little smoother, but we can only stoop so low. That's not impertinence, that's just a realistic threshold; setting the "suitable for ages 7 and older" label on the box. The tragedy is that there are some guys out there with deep, rich understanding of aircraft construction and history, etc. But the chances of them contributing their knowledge for posterity is slim because of this technology gap, and maybe some stubbornness that rides on the stigma of "computers."

Platform/technology agnosticism like Barnstormer mentioned is hugely important. We've reached an equilibrium of specific open technologies championed by the mobile device manufacturers that has hopefully plateaued for a while. Today the middle ground, the great equalizer, is HTML 5(information), CSS 3 (styling), and MP4 (video), which is how you're reading this on your iPad, your desktop computer, etc and watching videos across multiple devices. The technology should be transparent to the user and not a stumbling block, but by its very nature it is dynamic and in flux and therefore prone to some adoption hiccups. But, no one should ever champion or defend Adobe Flash in the year 2015. This is what happens when airplane enthusiasts are forced to become reluctant information technology professionals.

And finally, when it comes down to a single person who represents a website or club, as is often the case in these websites, that person had better be a damned PR buddhist monk. I have always struggled with this aspect of the job because some days you just can't stand to hear one more person insult or criticize you because of how you choose to moderate or organize your website, so you make a comment or reply in the heat of the moment (sometimes my mouth is faster than my brain.) That user on the other end has judged the entire ball of wax by your emotioned response, and often their only recourse is to "quit" the site. I've been on both sides of that fence and it's just the dynamics of pride and human nature.

Hopefully the Skywagon website guys will learn from this experience and focus on how to remain professional in a volunteer position. I think having these type club websites succeed is critical for owner support.

Great deep thoughts Zzz. I find BCP quite easy to use. I find it really easy to use on tapatalk, and that's where most of my reading and posting is done from. Pictures are very easy to post, although it usually ends up being a crappy phone picture. I have yet to join the 180 club, as I have gotten answers to any of my questions on BCP. And for that I say thanks to everyone, especially you Zane!

Z, I deffinatly owe you a beer or 2 and I wouldent be offended if I had to buy something other than Coors Light.
And after that last post of yours I'd say you probable need a good beer about now.

Robw56, you pretty much nailed it, but about the only thing won't drink anymore is Bursons Jaramiah Weed.

Terry wrote:Robw56, you pretty much nailed it, but about the only thing won't drink anymore is Bursons Jaramiah Weed.

I'm with you, I survived one flaming shot without catching my face on fire so I'm quiting while I'm ahead!

Terry wrote:And after that last post of yours I'd say you probable need a good beer about now.

Ha! I'm in a good place here these days, everyone seems happy, but I will drink that beer anyway... Elysian Space Dust IPA this week.

Good to see I wasn't the only one to feel serious cringe factor with the email and response sent to all members. Regardless who's right or wrong, volunteer or not, there was no excuse for sending that response to everyone - that was way out of line!

Zzz wrote:....After all these years, it makes perfect sense to read Hotrod admit that he only recently got a cell phone. In spite of that proud ignorance, I think you've done pretty well here Eric. I'm still working to make this particular site more mobile friendly.
Some of us have made a career out of designing products that are intended to make transition into technology by the reluctant a little smoother, but we can only stoop so low. That's not impertinence, that's just a realistic threshold; setting the "suitable for ages 7 and older" label on the box.....

I think I been insulted, but I'm not sure!
I believe that's what they call a back-handed compliment, but if that's the best I can get I'll take it.

I think that people come pre-wired, with a knack for doing certain things.. That's why some make a living driving nails or driving trucks, and others make a living doing accounting or IT stuff. Kind of like a men are from mars sort of thing. Some people will never "get" flying, no matter how much they try. And some people just shouldn't be allowed to have a tool in their hand. And some people (myself included) just aren't gonna do well with high-tech.... or sometimes even low-tech.

It's also sometimes a matter of how you grew up. Kids today graduate from diapers with more high-tech ability than I have at age 57. People in their 20's now grew up with this high-tech stuff, it just comes natural to them after being immersed in it their whole life. Knowing one end of a crescent wrench from the other... maybe not so much.

Zane makes excellent points. And, his management of this forum is stellar, in my opinion.

One point where I kind of disagree is reference to a web forum being revitalized after it becomes essentially defunct (as in useless for info, and arguments). An example is the Seaplane Pilots Association web forum. The association allowed that forum become irrelevant, and, while they have now brought it back to a much better condition, if you see a new post on there every couple of weeks, it's a busy month.

Frankly, there are so many of these web forums out there now that if a moderator allows one to devolve into chaos, most folks will just move on, and probably won't come back.

I think the likelihood of the 180/185 forum doing much in future is pretty low.

MTV

No other site has captivated my attention nearly as much as BCP.org. I visit it several times a week, sometimes many times in a day and have for ten years. I no longer go to any type specific sites because I have found everything I'm looking for here without all of the clubby attitude. Zzz's management of BCP is top notch. I can think of no other internet forum, for flying or otherwise that has done as well at creating community.

Thank you Zzz for having a great and active site.

It is beyond me why the 180/185 Club website would not pattern their website off of BCP or the Supercub sites. Those two sites seem to be very active and the most successful. If the guy paying the bill only has a iPhone when trying to renew the membership and can't after 20 minutes of trying, forget about it. It is not like we have never used an iPhone or are tech adverse.




To boot both of the 180/185 Webmasters (past and present) have major Attitude problems.

Zzz wrote:Deep thoughts, with Zane, since one of my reluctant hobbies is web community management:

Over the years, in the course of discussions related to the stodgy luddite pilot persona, it has been suggested to me more than once that a great percentage of the most knowledgeable among us does not even dabble with these websites. That's kinda sad.

As a 170 owner, I never joined the association because I was put off by George Horn's personality. That's probably more skin off my back than his/theirs, but the point was proven, at least to me, that there are camps among us, divided by technology. Horn was the one who intimated that the majority of their membership does not use the forum (and therefore it was not a priority for him.) I'm sure the same must be true for other type clubs for classics, whose demographics tend toward the older crowd.

We exist in one section of the Venn diagram of this interest group-- The owners/members who embrace the Internet tools of a type club. There are other members who do not, and there are some of do so with great resistance and make a lot of noise about how difficult it is. After all these years, it makes perfect sense to read Hotrod admit that he only recently got a cell phone. In spite of that proud ignorance, I think you've done pretty well here Eric. I'm still working to make this particular site more mobile friendly.

Some of us have made a career out of designing products that are intended to make transition into technology by the reluctant a little smoother, but we can only stoop so low. That's not impertinence, that's just a realistic threshold; setting the "suitable for ages 7 and older" label on the box. The tragedy is that there are some guys out there with deep, rich understanding of aircraft construction and history, etc. But the chances of them contributing their knowledge for posterity is slim because of this technology gap, and maybe some stubbornness that rides on the stigma of "computers."

Platform/technology agnosticism like Barnstormer mentioned is hugely important. We've reached an equilibrium of specific open technologies championed by the mobile device manufacturers that has hopefully plateaued for a while. Today the middle ground, the great equalizer, is HTML 5(information), CSS 3 (styling), and MP4 (video), which is how you're reading this on your iPad, your desktop computer, etc and watching videos across multiple devices. The technology should be transparent to the user and not a stumbling block, but by its very nature it is dynamic and in flux and therefore prone to some adoption hiccups. But, no one should ever champion or defend Adobe Flash in the year 2015. This is what happens when airplane enthusiasts are forced to become reluctant information technology professionals.

And finally, when it comes down to a single person who represents a website or club, as is often the case in these websites, that person had better be a damned PR buddhist monk. I have always struggled with this aspect of the job because some days you just can't stand to hear one more person insult or criticize you because of how you choose to moderate or organize your website, so you make a comment or reply in the heat of the moment (sometimes my mouth is faster than my brain.) That user on the other end has judged the entire ball of wax by your emotioned response, and often their only recourse is to "quit" the site. I've been on both sides of that fence and it's just the dynamics of pride and human nature.

Hopefully the Skywagon website guys will learn from this experience and focus on how to remain professional in a volunteer position. I think having these type club websites succeed is critical for owner support.

Good thoughts Zane, but most of the IT stuff went right over my head.. I like to tinker with the plane not the website so I bought the software for mine and have not bothered to learn to use 90% of the functions since I first got it in 09. I still pay them to apply the updates and the auto function doesn't seem to work for me.

On the bold.. its a matter of perspective. If you have a site that is full of contributors that have pretty thick skin have thousands of (good) posts that are not afraid to call a spade a spade, or a jackwagon a jackwagon I find that moderating is pretty much not needed. I run a site that prides itself on not moderating anything short of SEVERE personal insults. I refuse to get ulcers because some whiner with 2 posts cries about something someone said that they found offensive.. if they dont like it, no one is holding a gun to their head making them look at the site. In the last 6 years I have had 2 or 3 people report a topic to me and I did not moderate any of them. It was just a whiner who would never fit into the site anyway. All this being said, you can't please them all and if you (they) dont like it, dont let the door hit your (their) ass on the way out.

Running a niche website is not that much fun, I got a LOT of resistance from the older folks who had been using email list type boards for years (before forums were developed) and they hated trying to learn how to use a forum.. about 80% of the old guys that said they would never use my site have since joined and many are really good contributors.

I tried to join the 180 club but since the plane was not registered in my name (a slight precaution due to past issues that were not yet resolved with uncle sam and my unwillingness to let them treat me like i was willy nelson) I was snubbed and told to take a hike.. screw em, there are alot better ways to get advice on the 180 right here than on the OTHER site.

Keep up the work, but dont try and keep the 1% happy, its no skin off anyone's package if they don't want to stick around and gleam or contribute info to the site.

Years ago,aA buddy of mine told me he joined the C180/185 Club for a year or two, long enough to take advantage of the various mfr's discounts to club members, then let his membership lapse. Looking at the club store in their newsletter, I see that now they offer a "discount supplier list".... for three bucks! Really?

I've been in "the club" for about 4 months now, and so far I have gotten way more enjoyment, entertainment, & information here at BCP than at the club site-- even regarding Skywagon-specific issues. I doubt I'll renew-- I'll send the $25 dues instead as a contribution to BCP..

What's foolish about the 180/185 club's membership policies is aircraft value. If anyone could join and use the basic "site" to learn about the aircraft the owners benefit in higher sales prices, cheaper liability insurance etc. The owners can always have an area open only to owners. But to limit themselves exclusively, to owners, is not very smart in the long term. We will all be sellers, or our estates, sooner or later.....

I hope to soon own a 185/180 and it's been more difficult than it has had to be. Que sera, sera.

Z has done a great job with this site. I've tried to help out a small racing club I used to run with many years ago with their IT, and it was just a comedy of errors. I gave them a nice php forum and updated a website for them, which was a nice update from the email listserv hosted on a college server. The forum attracted new members, was a great way of dispersing information (the used to do a 3-4 times a year mailer), and actually had some decent traffic on it. But the old timers grumbled enough, accused me of taking over the club, etc... so I gave it up. Gave them all the passwords and told them to delete my accounts. Just checked back today. Their "new" forum has... 3 posts on it in the last few months. Oh well. Sometimes you just can't help them.

Cub Club - another sad testament to dinosaur mentality run by colossal ineptitude.

delete