Looking for some input here.
I have a 200hp Bearhawk 4 place. It is a little on the heavy side but a great machine. I'm really enjoying the backcountry playground that we have around these parts. I'm finding that when I go land somewhere I'm really having to pre-plan my departure and initial climb.
When at light to mid weight my takeoff run is about 450-600' and initial climb close to 680-750 fpm.
I'd really like to get a bit more performance off the ground and in the initial climb which led me to Ly-Con Engines. They specialize in porting cylinders to achieve optimal airflow.
http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/ ... r_0409.pdf
After talking to them they believe that by porting my cylinders and adding higher compression Pistons I should see a 25-30hp increase.
Porting alone will cost around $300/cylinder and yield a total 20hp increase
Higher compression Pistons $275/ea for another 10hp
My question is:
1. Worth the $2500 ??
2. Will I see a marked difference in performance going from a 200hp 1570lb plane to 230hp. Particularity in the takeoff/initial climb STOL regime.
200hp to 230hp for $2500 Worth it?
Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:38 pm
200hp to 230hp for $2500 Worth it?
Last edited by Baloo on Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:50 am, edited 3 times in total.
- Baloo offline
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Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:44 pm
Re: 200hp to 230hp for $2500 Worth it?
I can't add anything..... But if I could have an extra 30hp for only $2500 I would do it!
Mon Feb 29, 2016 11:56 pm
Re: 200hp to 230hp for $2500 Worth it?
From what I have read over the years about port and polish work, 30hp sounds very optimistic. There's definitely some power to be gained through improved efficiency of air flow, but I'm skeptical of that number. I think there's way better bang for the buck with compression ratio or propeller, although it sounds like your 360 is already running at 200hp, which means you're at 9:1? Or is it a fuel injected variant?
- Zzz offline
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Half a century spent proving “it is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.”
Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:57 am
Re: 200hp to 230hp for $2500 Worth it?
In a heart beat I would get the cylinders done.
I spent $4000 on a tuned exhaust that gets me and extra 15hp in an o-470.
I spent $4000 on a tuned exhaust that gets me and extra 15hp in an o-470.
- Quickdraw1 offline
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Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:47 am
Re: 200hp to 230hp for $2500 Worth it?
We put a lycon O-320 on a super
Cub, that weighed the same empty as mine, with the same prop and I could feel a difference in power on takeoff. When the time comes I'll have lycon cyl on my cub
Cub, that weighed the same empty as mine, with the same prop and I could feel a difference in power on takeoff. When the time comes I'll have lycon cyl on my cub
Tue Mar 01, 2016 6:08 am
Re: 200hp to 230hp for $2500 Worth it?
Zzz wrote:From what I have read over the years about port and polish work, 30hp sounds very optimistic. There's definitely some power to be gained through improved efficiency of air flow, but I'm skeptical of that number. I think there's way better bang for the buck with compression ratio or propeller, although it sounds like your 360 is already running at 200hp, which means you're at 9:1? Or is it a fuel injected variant?
I've got 8.5:1 compression, it is the angle valve io360 the and it is injected. It also has an 80" Hartzell constant speed prop.
I guess aside from value my bigger question is what kind of actual performance gains could I expect to see if on the conservative side I got an extra 25hp out of it.
- Baloo offline
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Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:55 am
Re: 200hp to 230hp for $2500 Worth it?
I've never gotten out of an airplane and said man I wish I had less horsepower for that last flight. That includes the 900 horse taildragger I used to spend some time in.
Tue Mar 01, 2016 8:35 am
Re: 200hp to 230hp for $2500 Worth it?
Our 0-320 B2B on the cub was built by LyCon. It dyno'd at 187HP. That was with all the magic they can do to it for certified, pretty impressive IMO.
Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:44 am
Re: 200hp to 230hp for $2500 Worth it?
robw56 wrote:I can't add anything..... But if I could have an extra 30hp for only $2500 I would do it!
Copy that. I'd spend twice that, maybe 3 times.
I'd be concerned about not being able to run Mogas on the higher compression, if that's a factor if (when) 100LL goes away. Assuming you can run it if you choose with your current compression.
Another concern would be longevity of the powerplant at higher than rated compression/power.
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Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:14 pm
Re: 200hp to 230hp for $2500 Worth it?
Mountain Doctor wrote:.........
I'd be concerned about not being able to run Mogas on the higher compression, if that's a factor if (when) 100LL goes away. Assuming you can run it if you choose with your current compression. Another concern would be longevity of the powerplant at higher than rated compression/power.
x2
When overhaul time comes for me, I don't plan on ponking my 470 or going high compression...but I would like to have everything balanced, polished, etc ("blueprinted" used to be the term, back in the day) to get the most power & smoothness out of the stock design.
Cessna Skywagon -- accept no substitute!
Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:26 pm
Re: 200hp to 230hp for $2500 Worth it?
Well, if you really want to get serious about a "little more power", consider dropping an IO-540 in that puppy 
. And, of course, have the Lycon guys work that one over as well......
If you're really that limited at light to mid weights, is 30 more hp going to do it for you? Are you going to have to add a new prop as well?
More power is good, of course, question is, how far do you take that?
MTV
. And, of course, have the Lycon guys work that one over as well......If you're really that limited at light to mid weights, is 30 more hp going to do it for you? Are you going to have to add a new prop as well?
More power is good, of course, question is, how far do you take that?
MTV
Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:35 pm
Re: 200hp to 230hp for $2500 Worth it
Just curious:
Questions:
* CG (average during the flight from leading edge, and MAX & MIN)
* EMPTY WEIGHT
* GROSS
Questions:
* CG (average during the flight from leading edge, and MAX & MIN)
* EMPTY WEIGHT
* GROSS
CFII, MEI, CFISES, ATPME, IA/AP, RPPL, Ski&Amphib ops, RHC mechanic cert, RHC SC— 3000TT
Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:41 pm
200hp to 230hp for $2500 Worth it?
mtv wrote:Well, if you really want to get serious about a "little more power", consider dropping an IO-540 in that puppy
If you're really that limited at light to mid weights, is 30 more hp going to do it for you? Are you going to have to add a new prop as well?
More power is good, of course, question is, how far do you take that?
MTV
I agree with MTV. You should be able to sell your FWF to another builder and install a O540 on your plane.
Seems like you should be getting better performance than you are unless your plane is quite heavy.
Last edited by whee on Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:21 pm
Re: 200hp to 230hp for $2500 Worth it?
whee wrote:mtv wrote:Well, if you really want to get serious about a "little more power", consider dropping an IO-540 in that puppy
If you're really that limited at light to mid weights, is 30 more hp going to do it for you? Are you going to have to add a new prop as well?
More power is good, of course, question is, how far do you take that?
MTV
I agree with MTV. You should be able to sell your FWF to another builder and install a O540 on you're plane.
Seems like you should be getting better performance than you are unless your plane is quite heavy.
X3 - look at upgrading to an O-540 and different prop, 84-inch. Also, put the plane and what it carries on a diet
. I'd be happy to discuss some ideas and things you could try to lighten it up before you make a cash out lay. Do you have VG's?, how much fuel do you carry when you're out playing for instance? What floor boards, seats and interior, wheels, brakes, etc? There may be opportunities in those areas that you could look at first, if you haven't already.Mike - seven 7 five - 34 zero- seven zero 7 three or PM me
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Tue Mar 01, 2016 6:36 pm
Re: 200hp to 230hp for $2500 Worth it?
I have to throw in my two cents, $2500 to gain 15% that’s cheap. Along with that comes some other positives and negatives, Positives: Porting and raising the compression will always raise the efficacy of an engine, you will get better fuel economy at the same speed , cleaning up the ports and valve seats will also help balance the engine, making it smoother and increasing HP.
Negatives: any time you increase performance you also increase stress on the rest of the engine, thus shortening the engine life. Heat: increasing performance means you’re making more BTU and applying it to your cylinders and pistons, are you planning on running a multi cylinder engine analyzer? If you’re building a hot rod, raising the compression, increasing flow you are also making a more fragile engine. I’m not saying not to do it, but if you do, monitor it. Don’t even think about running mogas in a high compression engine in less you want to walk home.
But that’s my two cents.
Negatives: any time you increase performance you also increase stress on the rest of the engine, thus shortening the engine life. Heat: increasing performance means you’re making more BTU and applying it to your cylinders and pistons, are you planning on running a multi cylinder engine analyzer? If you’re building a hot rod, raising the compression, increasing flow you are also making a more fragile engine. I’m not saying not to do it, but if you do, monitor it. Don’t even think about running mogas in a high compression engine in less you want to walk home.
But that’s my two cents.
Tue Mar 01, 2016 6:43 pm
Re: 200hp to 230hp for $2500 Worth it?
I did it and would do it again and again. Very happy with the results. Thanks Lycon
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Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:09 pm
Re: 200hp to 230hp for $2500 Worth it?
One thing to consider with any Hp increase is that the first 10-15 HP are easy after that it is much harder!! The upgrade numbers do not add up like you would hope. You have the easy HP with the Fuel injection and angle valve heads. I would think the porting and pistons would help but not 30hp and if it did make it that would be at redline. If you did the math that all mods added 100% of stated HP than just include a exhaust and Pmags you can be at 250.
How fast do you spool up and what is you rpm right before your tires leave the ground. The more RPM you have the more power you will be making. You may need to change or adjust you prop so you are close or at 2700 to use all the power. I think Lycon porting is great and would be happy to have it on my engine but if you are not turning high RPM'S I don't think it will help that much.
DENNY
How fast do you spool up and what is you rpm right before your tires leave the ground. The more RPM you have the more power you will be making. You may need to change or adjust you prop so you are close or at 2700 to use all the power. I think Lycon porting is great and would be happy to have it on my engine but if you are not turning high RPM'S I don't think it will help that much.
DENNY
DENNY
Tue Mar 01, 2016 9:33 pm
Re: 200hp to 230hp for $2500 Worth it?
Somewhere on BCP there is and old post from mauleguy where he talks about why he did not have his cylinders polished.
Found the post from back in 2012:
Found the post from back in 2012:
Mauleguy wrote:I talked to Hatches when I was going to try and get more HP out of my O-360c1a. Here is what I came away with, they have a dyno and would take brand new factory Lycoming engines and run them on the dyno to get a base line before they did any tuning. Brand new out of the box they would see178-182 hp, they then did port and polishing and flow match which would yield around 20% better flow on their test equipment, this only equals around 1.5 hp per cylinder or 6 hp when they put the engine back on the dyno. Then they started upping the compression and with 9.5 to 1 they would see around 8 hp gain 10.5 to 1 around 15 hp gain. Then they would do exhaust, fuel etc., I can't remember the order they did all this but the biggest bang for the buck was compression. The port and polish and flow match was minimal, these engines just don't turn the RPM's to take advantage of it. He told me he was not trying to talk me out of it but said that there is no way to get 20hp from port and polish on a 4 cylinder Lycoming that he has numbers for many engines that it does not support that 20hp number.
I did the 10.5-1, exhaust and a different propeller. I went from a static pull of 650 pounds to 805 pounds with those changes.
I did a pull before I changed the pistons and it only got me around 55 pounds of extra thrust. The biggest game changer was the propeller, I personally think the propeller is more important then the HP.
Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:42 am
Re: 200hp to 230hp for $2500 Worth it?
Thanks for all the feedback! I really appreciate it. I Spoke with Blackrock this evening and he has some good ideas of things to try in terms of streamlining etc...
Yes my A/C is a tad on the heavy side (maybe 80lbs heavier than comparable models) but I am trying to figure out why I am running about 300fpm shy of where I should be and 10-15kts slower than I should be. It is a home built aircraft and the builder did an immaculate job.
I am pulling 2700rpm on takeoff with an 80" prop. Yes I have checked and calibrated the RPM with a laser tach. Some of my flying buddies have commented that on takeoff and in the air it sounds like a 185 on amphibs. While I personally think they sound pretty awesome, I dont think the 80" tips should be breaking the sound barrier (its not that cold out). I wonder what an 84" prop would do.
Realistically the 540 is not in the cards anytime soon for many reasons. 1 Cost, 2 I have a perfectly good low time (260hr) io-360 and thats a big change to make. I would be happy if I could get the numbers that I should be seeing with the io-360 instead of my degraded climb and cruise. Any ideas?
Yes my A/C is a tad on the heavy side (maybe 80lbs heavier than comparable models) but I am trying to figure out why I am running about 300fpm shy of where I should be and 10-15kts slower than I should be. It is a home built aircraft and the builder did an immaculate job.
I am pulling 2700rpm on takeoff with an 80" prop. Yes I have checked and calibrated the RPM with a laser tach. Some of my flying buddies have commented that on takeoff and in the air it sounds like a 185 on amphibs. While I personally think they sound pretty awesome, I dont think the 80" tips should be breaking the sound barrier (its not that cold out). I wonder what an 84" prop would do.
Realistically the 540 is not in the cards anytime soon for many reasons. 1 Cost, 2 I have a perfectly good low time (260hr) io-360 and thats a big change to make. I would be happy if I could get the numbers that I should be seeing with the io-360 instead of my degraded climb and cruise. Any ideas?
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Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:07 am
Re: 200hp to 230hp for $2500 Worth it?
To answer your original question, yes I think its a good deal from a cost/benefit standpoint. Some of the responses I've read give me a question of my own. What does fuel injection have to do with it? The angle valve motor is a different animal, and I don't think the injection has anything to do with it making 200 hp. The parallel valve engine produces 180 hp, injected or carbureted. I think a myth is being perpetuated about injection. I've come across several 360 parallel valve engines over the years that have been converted to injection, and subsequently claimed to produce 200 hp. I don't think injection has anything to do with power output, other than the small marginal improvement that comes from better mixture distribution between cylinders.
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