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FiftynineSCWrote:
Great planes rarely make it to market, if they do it's literally hours. Lot of junk out there....some being knowing marketed by sellers/brokers trying to find the "right buyer." Equal amount, if not more, terrible airplanes being sold by unknowing owners that truly don't realize what they bought.

BigRenna wrote:
If you are seriously looking (cash in hand) be vigilant and pounce, just make sure you know what you are pouncing on! Good luck with your search!

So here is the question.

In addition to the usual suspects like Trade-a-Plane and Barnstormers, how do you locate these so called “gems” which rarely make it to market? I have only rented and never owned a plane so I am speculating here, but?? Assuming you have cash in hand, have decided on exactly what you want, and even have an acceptable alternate choice, what's next ?

Post a want to buy WTB ad on the type club website like VansAirForce.net for an RV-9, ABS American Bonanza Society for a V-Tail Bonanza.

Place WTB ad on AOPA and EAA community forums.

Use search engines to scan CraigsList and eBay. (Yeah…probably a bit risky re ebay).

Go to Flyins, workshops, and seminars and “put the word out” to whomever you meet re what you are looking for.

Contact shops that specialize in repair, overhaul, landing gear upgrades, etc. for the particular plane you are looking for (say a Cessna 182). Leave word and promise you’ll give them some business if you end up buying one of their leads.

Post a physical note on the bulletin board, if there is one, as found at most FBOs, small airports.

Others?

If you have a colorful story or advice to share, please pipe up. How did you find your plane ? Happy ending?

There are probably some negatives re some of these alternate methods, such as being swarmed by brokers. Incidentally, I am not buying anything right now, but maybe in the future I'll build or buy. I was reading some recent threads here from people looking for a 180, a float plane, etc. so I was just curious.

Motivated Seller. Needs Floats and some TLC. Sell before Winter

My best airplane and best deal was in the middle seventies when I bought a just rebuild PA22-150 w/mid-time engine for $6500 from Doug Rinehart. I walked over to help him fuel and look at it at Gallup, NM. I ended up flying him to his home field at Farmington and bought it. He demonstrated some very smooth acrobatics on the way. He did shows with his Rose Parakeet. He owned the certificate on them and manufactured a few. His son still did, last time I was in Farmington.

Other than hire a good mechanic to look for one, I would suggest keeping money available and looking about you as you fly around.

Really experienced old guys with limited income fly other people's airplanes.

I found my 182 when my Dad and I were talking to some guys at a small airshow. They were admiring my Dad's 170 and he mentioned I was looking for a 180, lo and behold there was an older man on the field thinking about selling his '56 182. It wasn't listed or anything, he had just mentioned to his friends he might sell the plane. We went and checked it out, and I agreed to buy it a few days later. He wasn't quite ready to sell it, but a cash offer and a young buyer pushed him in the right direction.

I was looking for a 206 when my father in law decided to sell his 185.

He offered it to me at a good price....I asked him if there was any additional favorite son in law discount (I am the only son in law)....he said "no....but when your mother in law and I kick the bucket you will get 50% back!"

I couldn't refuse!

I'm on airplanes #4 & 5. Not many by some and too many by others. Here is my advice and what has worked for me:

1- Know exactly what you want.
2- Have a firm budget to work with and have the money in the bank.
3- Be ready to pounce when the right opportunity reveals it's self.
4- Your on the hunt so check Barnstormers, TAP, and other resources daily. You'll soon see a pattern of airplanes that are dogs that just can't seem to sell and hopefully you won't end up buying a project.
5- Let others know your serious and you would apppreciate any potential leads.
6- Don't get emotional about any airplane you might find. Be willing to walk away from any "exceptional" airplane if the deal is not in your advantage. If it's not right, it'll be expensive.
7- The most important is BE PATIENT. It took me two years to find my latest Pitts but two months to find my 180. Both are awesome airplanes and I haven't questioned my decisions.

Your airplane is an investment. Hopefully it will make you a bit of money when you sell it, or at least help offset the expense in owning an airplane.

My .02 and worth what you paid for it. Enjoy the hunt, it's half the fun in finding the right steed.

Rich

X2 -what he said above, especially having your financial house in order ahead of time. As many other sellers can attest, the amount of story tellers and bs "I'll have the money next week" dreamers are dime a dozen. The good deals go fast and you need to be ready to do the deal right away when the plane hits the market. Money talks and bs walks.

I agree with what was said, I've bought two airplanes both times with cash in hand. The first time around I was fresh off my PPL training, I really had no idea of all the costs associated with aircraft ownership. I'm not complaining, just saying that no matter what you buy it will need something. That being said you would be smart to do your best to keep that "something" on the small side. My two cents based on experience is, pounce and lock it in with a CONTRACT and a refundable down payment. Trust No One, get a thorough pre-buy using a mechanic familiar with make and model and with zero ties to the seller. Decide what the squawks are worth to you and negotiate from there and/or get the refundable deposit back and continue searching. I would also seriously consider using a buying agent such as AOPA to cover your ass on the paper work/registration and titling end. Good planes are out there and it's a blast to search, getting a good one is worth the wait and due diligence. Good Luck Keep us Posted.

Figured I better chime in since I opened my big mouth!

Seriously though, Pitt's driver hit the heart and soul of this deal. I'll just add what I think is most important and a couple of my experiences.

First and foremost: Networking. To find a good plane that's about to go on the market, or even better, the guy that's "thinking about" downsizing...it's word of mouth. Go to the fly-ins, be a sincere enthusiast, put the word out via friends and mechanics. Best thing that I've seen work time after time is hit a type-club fly in and just socialize with everyone. You don't have to come out and say "sell me your plane"...just show the natural enthusiasm and the other guy will ask "why don't you have an XYZ?" Tell them the truth; I'm looking for a great plane that's been well cared for by an enthusiast and willing to wait and pay for the privilege. After all, to quote another member here..."we are ultimately only care takers of these planes."

So, be an airport bum, a type club fly in bum and religiously pour over trade a plane. Also, don't always assume a broker is bad. Some are and some aren't. Just make a value decision, but know that he's there to market and make a rate of return first. One thing I think of is adopt a brokers mentality. They often find planes by cold calling someone on a registry, sending an owner a hand written note asking if they'd entertain an offer, etc.

Many times a good lead is calling the guy that just sold that "perfect" plane.....he's a good source of leads too. A guy with a perfect Super Cub probably travels in those circles and is going to associate with like minded people that may be thinking about selling in the near future. If they hear of a guy that's no B.S, got cash in hand, and he wont be asked to fly the plane 500 miles for some monkey to tear his plane apart...you might get a phone call.

Bill

Lots of good information here. One thing to keep in mind when you do find that perfect airplane… don’t forget to consider the sellers point of view. Lots of folks have an fairly unrealistic idea of what a person should have to put up with in order to sell an airplane.

You might have to trust your gut and take a chance in order to get a good airplane before someone else snatches it up. Advice like “get a annual inspection from YOUR mechanic prior to purchase” is good advice, but it’s also a lot more realistic for a rather common airframe like a 172 than for a clean 180. Someone selling a coveted airplane in good shape at a fair price (not to be confused with a bargain price) really doesn’t have to make a lot of accommodations. And the less they like your attitude, the fewer accommodations they’ll make.

Get as much information as you can, both about the airplane and the person selling it, but don’t be surprised if a seller isn’t interested in jumping through their own arsehole to get you into their airplane. If you think you found The One, be prepared to hand them asking price without having a couple weeks to get all the assurance you might want about what you're buying. We paid asking price for both our airplanes and were happy to get them. They weren’t great bargains, but they were what we wanted and not very common, so we paid what they were asking. If we’d tried to nickel and dime every little squawk to save a few thousand dollars we wouldn’t have gotten either of them.

I did not have an annual inspection on either airplane we bought. In fact, we bought one of the airplanes without any inspection at all…I trusted the guy who was selling it and that was that. The second airplane was inspected by a friend of mine who's a good wrench and knows airplanes, but not by a mechanic. Couldn't get that arranged quickly enough, and didn't want to loose the plane to another buyer.

The attitude of the people I bought from was pretty much: here’s the airplane, here’s the price. If you want to haul someone over to look at it, fine, but the airplane stays on the field until money changes hands. If you want to start squawking about this and that, go find another airplane…there’s lots of them out there. Yes, we’re asking top dollar, because that’s what these airplanes in these conditions sell for.

Not unfriendly or even unhelpful, they just knew the airplanes were solid and would sell at the asking price, and dicking around with someone who didn’t see it that way was a waste of their time.

When we sold our first airplane, I felt the same. It was a very good airplane at a fair price and whoever ended up with it was going to be lucky to have it, if that’s what they wanted. Any interested person was welcome to hire one of the four mechanics on the field to inspect it, but I wasn’t going to fly it to another field so someone could look at it, or let someone I just met take it for a test flight, or park it in a strange mechanics hangar for an undetermined amount of time for a pre-buy.

When someone contacted me with a “here’s what you’re going to have to do for me and here’s where you’re overpriced” attitude, I just told them it wasn’t the right airplane for them. I even refused to sell it to one person at asking price because I thought they had the wrong attitude about the whole thing, and selling it to them seemed like it was going to be more work that it was worth.

In the end, if you want a coveted bird like a clean 180, you’re going to pay top dollar for an airframe that’s already fantastically overpriced, and you’re probably not going to get an endless amount of help from the seller. It’s best to come to terms with those facts beforehand, or someone else is going to buy the airplane while you do.

Hammer wrote:Lots of good information here. One thing to keep in mind when you do find that perfect airplane… don’t forget to consider the sellers point of view. Lots of folks have an fairly unrealistic idea of what a person should have to put up with in order to sell an airplane.

That's a very good point. Until you sell an airplane, you cannot imagine the craziness that some "potential buyers" come up with. To add to the list of things I expect from a buyer as the seller:

I am not interested in negotiating price if you have not bothered to come look at the airplane
I will take you for a demo flight but:

I am PIC.
You should pay for gas.
Just because I'm an CFI does not mean I'm going to sign your logbook saying the demo flight was dual.

Additional services (such as aircraft checkout) are a separate deal from the aircraft purchase.
Remember:

Until the deal is closed, it is MY airplane.
Once the deal is closed, it is YOUR airplane.

Remember that it is always easier to buy a plane than to sell a plane.

Hammer wrote: ....The attitude of the people I bought from was pretty much: here’s the airplane, here’s the price. If you want to haul someone over to look at it, fine, but the airplane stays on the field until money changes hands. If you want to start squawking about this and that, go find another airplane…there’s lots of them out there. ...

This has been my attitude.
I've priced the airplanes I've sold "as is, where is".
Pointing out all the little dents doesn't lower the price, because they've already been taken into account.

A friend of mine was selling his 180 about a year ago, and one potential buyer wanted him to photocopy the logbooks and all the 337's & email them. This was on a 1954 airplane with 2 or 3 airframe books and two engine books BTW. My buddy didn't mind copying the last annual or two, but everything....fuggetaboutit.

And ditto what BKK said about negotiating (aka lowballing) the price, sight unseen.
If you're really interested, at least come look at it first, so you can make a realistic offer.

Although I've lurked for a long time, this is my first "real' post. Thanks to all on BCP for letting me use YOUR knowledge... here goes-

First X2 on 59SC's comments.

I am a 400 hour (ish) PPL with a tailwheel endorsement and that will be the extent of my ratings, so I'm hardly an expert.

After getting my TW endorsement in a 7KCAB, I HAD to have a GCBC. I had been making a constant search for "suitable" planes for a long time, now I narrowed my search. I did not use TAP, but checked EBAY, Barnstormers and Craigslist everyday (sometimes more- it's addicting... ) Anyhow after about a month-the PERFECT plane showed up on B'stormers. I knew it was perfect because it was a "known" and local plane. One call to one of the local "gurus" garnered this response- " I've done the annuals on that plane I know it- BUY IT!" Long story short- before I could get the funds together, the owner got a Fedex'd cashiers check from the other coast! Total time to sell this plane was 4 days! It was 14 miles from my house and I was first in line. It didn't matter. The owner was a "known" stand up guy and the plane was "known" as well. Both in a good way.

After this, I was despondent, mad, kicking the dirt,etc...My pilot friends were asking what I was going to fly( I was renting at this point, too). My answer was "I'm buying the first flying plane I can get into without getting skinned". This just to fly and then sell it when the NEXT "perfect" plane showed up. So on to phase 2...

A straight tail 172 showed up on Craigslist about 200 miles from home. As I travel on business, I decided to wait for a "free ride" to look this one over. If "good deals sell fast" (and they DO) then this sucker was the polar opposite. I waited , looked at the plane, made inquiries, (it was considered the local "dog") and made an offer pending a pre-buy.

Now, here is the edge I had: I had a good relationship with a really good IA who was only about an hour from the 172. This plane had not flown since an EXTENSIVE (read $$$$ annual. I mean $$$$$.) "My guy" FLUNKED it in 10 minutes! There was nothing that wasn't fixable but in this price range, hard questions need to be asked. ( plan "B" was to part the plane out if there were any other surprises...). I bought the plane for half of the original asking price, and have not looked back. I'm happy. I fly it a lot. It still has a lot to teach me.

Please forgive me for this novel, but these 2 deals kind of illustrate the opposite ends of the spectrum. The Citabria was a low risk deal, but had to be snapped up quick. I had everything except ready cash ( I needed a week..)The Cessna, was a real crapshoot, but ended up working out. And I have been approached by pilots at fly in's who had seen the " airport dog" and kicking themselves for not buying it!

Find and surround yourself with the best people you can find. They call this networking now. They are out there. I know guys that can size up a plane like they are Superman with X-ray vision. Some are here on BCP.

I am unsure if you are somewhat flexible as to what kind of plane you want; or what will you "settle" for. There is a difference. Many of the premier BCP planes are also "working" airplanes and priced accordingly. (high). It is hard to find a "deal" on these. If you are renting, having almost any plane of your own, waiting at the airport, full of fuel, waiting for YOU is GREAT.

Thanks to all and forgive the grammar and punctuation. Also, Thanks to "Contact" Jim. Great Book!

Contact:

If it is the same Doug Reinhart, he used to operate out of the Aztec NM airport. He not only built / rebuilt numerous Rose Parakeets but also did aerobatic airshows in them.

Quite a guy!!

I have often wished someone would do a good article / bio on his life.

I only had the opportunity to meet him once, but I ended up spending an entire afternoon listening to his stories and wished I had several more days.

Thanks for the reminder, hadn't thought about him in a long time. I believe that he passed away a number of years ago.

Z, sorry for the subject drift!

L

Delete

88H,

I too only spent part of a day with Doug. Yes he was an interesting guy and yes he did airshows in his Rose Parakeet with an O-200 in it. I still have his business card with a picture of him climbing the sheer wall of Canyon de Chelley. He was killed bringing a C-120 to Farmington to rebuild. Hit a wire when landing short of the mesa after the engine failed.

He also sprayed with a Scout. We who fly low all the time generally don't have to put it down in town, especially in the desert.

Contact

Zackbrand,

Thanks for the plug. I didn't want to go into the low end of the market, but I too only looked at dirt cheap airplanes because they were all I could afford. And yes, they fly just like show planes. My first airplane was a Flagstaff bank repossessed Ercoupe. I paid the $1350 owed on it. It flew and had six months left on the annual I did have to land wherever I was in the desert every 1.5 hours to put another couple of quarts of oil in the 75 HP Continental. Good training for the real thing.

Contact

I have bought 12 airplanes in the last 24 years. All but one were fixeruppers and priced well below the going rate. A hand full were local airplanes that I had kept tabs on over the years waiting for the owners to sell. When ever I would run into the owners at the airport I would remind them that I was interested in their airplane.
The rest I found on Barnstormers, TAP, and Craigslist.

When I buy an airplane, I always let the seller know that I will show up, check out the airplane, and if it is what I am looking for, I will be paying with Hundred dollar bills. NO BS, no games. If the plane is not in the condition as advertised, but worth buying at a lower price, I will make a cash offer and will walk away if I can't get the deal I want.

I always do a title search and ask my wife for permission before I move forward with a deal.

cliff wrote: I always do a title search and ask my wife for permission before I move forward with a deal.

Cliff raises an excellent point. Be sure you've done your negotiations at home before you start negotiating at the airfield.

My strategy was to start with a very high budget for an experimental plane with accident history. When I presented the reasonably priced 182 my wife was sure she'd talked some sense into me and happily signed off;-)

cliff wrote: When I buy an airplane, I always let the seller know that I will show up, check out the airplane, and if it is what I am looking for, I will be paying with Hundred dollar bills. NO BS, no games. If the plane is not in the condition as advertised, but worth buying at a lower price, I will make a cash offer and will walk away if I can't get the deal I want.

This brings up a question I've been wondering about, hope it's not drifting too much. Is actual cash ($100 bills like you said) the expected payment form? Is it a cash deposit and cashier's check? I'm in the market for my first plane, and I've got the money in the bank 'ready to go', however I wasn't sure on the norms of payment. I had assumed that when I went to check out planes I would take some cash as a form of deposit if things went well, and then talk to the seller about how they'd like the rest. Insight appreciated