DonC wrote:WOW... Gump u want to answer this one......I think my tongue is bleeding after biting it

Right there with ya' Don, and eagerly waiting to hear someone with more experience than me that will put this to bed. But for openers, where else are you going to learn about landing on glaciers, reading the spongy tundra from the rocky tundra, preheating at 35 below with no electricity, reading the lake conditions for overflow, getting out of overflow, which villages may be friendly and which may not be, dealing with the busiest seaplane base in the world, and how to handle yourself on the land when it comes to that?

Couple years ago one of the Talkeetna beavers landed in Kantishna where I happened to be working on my plane. Pilot had dropped climbers on the Kahiltna and then gotten weathered down on the north side of the range. He was obviously out of his zone as he asked me for directions to the FBO to buy fuel and a payphone to call his company. We have neither. I fueled him from a drum I had, and loaned him my satellite phone, after explaining that there wasn't any other place within his range, which he was pretty startled to learn. For a guy hired to fly passengers on tours of the area, his lack of local knowledge was incredible. He might have been a great flyer, but he hadn't been briefed or even bothered to learn his backdoor options, and I don't care to think about the quality of the information on his "tours". Pretty shocked that someone at his company had seen fit to turn him loose.

JJ,

You know not of what you speak. That's about as polite as I can make it. You sound like someone who THOUGHT about applying for a job in Alaska, but wasn't willing to put in the effort or time to get hired. Everyone wants a free ride these days, it seems, and there generally is no such thing in aviation, Alaska or lower 48.

Note that the "required" Alaska time to get a job in Alaska is almost always an INSURANCE company policy, NOT an air service policy, or some sort of macho BS, dictated by Alaskan pilots. Insurance companies base their rates and prohibitions on actuarials, by the way. Those are data, not conjecture, as you've presented. There are a lot of Alaska operators who'd love to be able to hire (and insure) a WELL QUALIFIED pilot with little or no AK experience. I know of a few companies who have, by hiring pilots to do something other than fly, then putting them in as PIC on non-revenue flights to build AK time and experience.

There are all sorts of reasons that pilots push weather in Alaska. By the way, there are lots of reasons people push weather in the lower 48. Recent accident related to weather near Bozeman, MT recently. They happen here as well. But in the lower 48 the mail and groceries generally get delivered by truck. In Alaska, they get delivered by airplane.

I've said many times that Pogo had it precisely correct when he said: "We have met the enemy, and he is us." Pilots are almost always motivated to fly. If they're not, they don't last long in the business. So, often times, it's not someone pushing the pilot to fly in bad weather, it's the pilot pushing him or her self. And, as Gump has said before, you may get away with it for months, even years. There was a fellow in Ketchikan who was famous for flying in extremely bad weather (and SE Alaska has some of the ugliest weather around). He flew in unbelievably bad weather for well over 25 years, and many thousands of hours without hurting a plane or passenger. Then he stuffed a Beaver into a mountainside, trying to get out of a lake where he'd picked up some hunters, after the weather closed in...he'd done it many times before, but on that one flight his luck ran out and they all died.

Point is, we fly conservatively, always keeping a margin of safety. With really good skills and understanding of the weather and country, you can cut those margins a lot closer than a new guy, but you can also paint yourself into a corner that you may not be able to get out of. Many have.

Pilots become more comfortable in familiar areas of the country, and maybe are willing to push a little harder. THat's human nature, and generally can be done safely, to a point. Deciding where that point is is the trick.

The last 19 years I flew in AK, my primary area of operations started about 50 miles north of FAI. It was about 250 miles east to west, and about 100 miles north to south. There was a mountain range between me and it. I went there most days, except December/January, when temps were typically below our cutoff (-40). There was ONE weather station in that area, and between there and FAI. No TAF's--ie: no forecast weather. So, what do you do---Not fly because you don't know what the weather is like? Hardly. I also was detailed to fly on the Alaska Peninsula, the Yukon Delta, South Central AK, and NW Alaska on occasion. On those trips, I had to recalibrate my weather decisions, because I didn't know the country, nor did I know the weather there. I flew in Kodiak for eight years, and I was starting to get a sort of okay handle on flying the weather there when I left. There are guys there who've flown thousands of hours on Kodiak, and never bent any airplane part. There is some weather there, by the way.

As Don says, MOST operators have NO problem with a pilot who takes a look and returns because of weather. I've known some that did, and they typically went out of business fairly quickly. Often because of accidents. I've seen passengers and bosses who pushed, and pushed hard. But, that was a long time ago, and I doubt that happens much any more.

As to overloading aircraft, that doesn't happen nearly as much these days as it may have in the past, and very few of the accidents these days have anything to do with the weight of the plane.

Alaska is BIG. There are dozens of different weather systems and many many micro climates that affect the flying weather. There are VERY few weather reporting stations, and, while the weather cameras have helped that problem, they are spread out over a lot of country as well.

I'd suggest that before you pontificate on the difficulties of flying in Alaska you go FLY in Alaska some, and let us know how it was. If you want that job, GO THERE, put in the time and effort, like others have, and then tell us all about it.

Now, sprayers--I've got four ex-students who are spraying right now, having worked their summers during school for an operator who then put them in a seat. The local operator, who employs one of our graduates (and actually IS one of our graduates) was in southern Minnesota for a six week stint this summer spraying with an Air Tractor 502. He put 250 hours on the airplane in that six week period. THAT is working an airplane. Most Alaska air taxi pilots will fly AT LEAST 100 to 120 hours a month on average. Try that in a place like Kodiak while not pushing weather just a bit.

And, finally, what do you call pushing weather? There are a lot of places and situations where 500 over and 4 miles is as good as it's apt to get. Question is, will it stay that way, get worse or better? And, flying in that sort of weather can sometimes be done safely, day in and day out. Ask Gump about flying out of Kotzebue in the winter, when the visibility is five miles and the ceiling is 5000 overcast. Sounds okay, doesn't it? That is pure IMC in that part of the world in winter, and if your instrument skills are not right up to par, you won't survive a VFR flight in that kind of weather.

Anyone see the mushroom cloud over Nevada??

MTV

Well said Mike............ and right on point

Mike, et all...

contrary to some big nuts, I do not claim to know what I talk of and I do not require politeness to pay attention, especially not from people I like and respect. When I use the word "seems" or "appears" I think to have made this point clear enough... All I can tell you, is how it is perceived on the side of the pilot seeking employment, specifically in those two sectors of aviation, many times not before having plenty of feedback from pilots who are actually in the field flying in AK, or claiming to have done so for thousands of hours. Same goes for Ag jockeys. Maybe it looks different if one prowls the prairie on a daily basis, or is just in a more fortunate spot, geographically? Opinions vary (in terms and amounts of BS dispersed) from: "Yeah, send your resume to soandso, he will hire someone and give them an in" to: "OMG, I would not want you to come up/ out here and start cleaning doorknobs, nobody will put anything on the line, you'd be wasting your money." The last I heard: "Everyone wants to be a bush pilot and people are staying put much longer than they did before, there is barely any turnover"... Reliable information is not easy to get - research is next to impossible and renting a Uhaul to tour the U.S. collecting opine is outta the question... That and the air is full of misinformation, in both of these industry sectors. In the end, it seems as if the oldest guy I ever talked to, about Ag flying and AK was right. You need more time to get a job, and you can't get the time without the job. Classic catch 22. So, be all bent out of shape, or don't I appreciate the info anyhow... not that it would matter, as I have hooked my pilot resume printer up so it dispenses printed paper right into the shredder...

I'm certainly out of the loop for being a new hire pilot in Alaska, or hiring anyone for that matter too. But, all I can offer is what I experienced from wearing several hats up there..

First, Mike is right about the insurance requirements for times logged for new hires. Lower the hours the higher the premiums. Simple math. Be very afraid of going to work for an outfit that will hire a really low time guy. I've been there, and it sucks. It means fly-by-night outfit, asshole boss, and shit airplanes. That's where you'll find the pressure to fly in wx and situations over your head. The guys running these outfits are crooks out to make a fast buck, and will use and abuse young pilots who aren't experienced or confident enough to stand up for what they've been taught and know is right. I'm sure I can name some names that'll make Don and a few others here say some pretty nasty words. We've all worked for them.

Second, the Alaska hours requirement isn't so much for "flying experience" in Alaska, as it is for "bush living experience" in Alaska. It's not funny at all, but heartbreaking, the number of times I met new pilots on the jet in Kotz or Barrow to start orientation. We'd swing by the office, dump their stuff at the pilot house and maybe go look at airplanes a bit. One look at the village, our customers, the weather, and the reality of exactly what and where they were gonna fly, and some guys would just quit. On the spot just say, "I quit, take me back to the terminal."

All those dreams and hard work earning the hours and the experience, but not being aware of the reality of the situation. Book bush Alaska is a whole lot different than real life bush Alaska. And, there are guys like me who just fell in love with the place from the first second, enjoyed the shit out of it, and still miss it terribly. But, long story short, a guy who's been up there to fly 500 hours is gonna know what he's getting in to, and not going to change his mind after a lot of expensive training. Again, simple math.

As for resumes... I bet I saw five a day come through my fax machine in Kotzebue. Almost every day. We read them all, and made bets on the number of actual phone calls we got as follow up. That answer was pretty much none. We kept them for a while, then they got tossed. A phone call was different, or holy shit, a live body walking through the door looking for a job. Every single guy who did that got one of us to actually sit down and talk and listen. Nobody I ever worked for would shine on a kid looking for a flying job. We loved what we did, were, and still are, excited about our profession, and even if we didn't have an opening we'd try and give straight advice and steer people in the right direction.

Hell, it's cultivating a crop. If I could get a kid hired by my competitor, they'd have to pay to train him and get him through check rides and building experience. Then, in a couple years when youngster was looking to jump ship and come work for me, I could stick him in a seat and have a journeyman pilot for a minimal investment. Again, simple math.

Hope this helps. Like I said, I'm out of the loop now and my era of flying, and type of flying is pretty much gone now. The old strips are abandoned, and these new beauties are cropping up everywhere for the 1900's and pure IFR Part 135 work. Nobody wants to fly a Sled or 185 up there anymore. Show up with solid IFR skills, be willing to work hard and live in a village, and the jobs will be there.

Gump

Don't mistake Median with Average.
Totally different statistics.

JJ,

Mailing or faxing resumes to ag operators or to Alaska air taxis doesn't work. For good reason. Getting hired requires some significant effort and risk. I mentioned the four students (and actually there are five now) who are now flying ag airplanes RIGHT OUT OF COLLEGE. They didn't just fall into the jobs, though, nor did they simply submit a resume and sit and wait for someone to bite. THey found an operator who was willing to train them, under the understanding they'd have to work as a loader first. They all worked as loaders at least two summers during school. As Gump says, the operator wants to KNOW you're serious before they commit to spending a lot of time and money training you. There are a lot of valid questions that need to be answered:

Do you show up on time, willing to work hard, long hours and unpleasant working conditions???? Can't answer those from a resume.

So, these students contacted ag operators, enquired about loading jobs, and discussed eventually flying for the operator. First summer, loading only, no flying. Second summer season: load and maybe fly a little in the boss's Citabria or Cessna 180. Third summer season: Boss flies with you in the 180 and teaches you how to get in and out of fields, make turns, handle wires, etc. You're still loading. Finally, the boss puts you in a little airplane like a Pawnee or Ag Truck, and you spray, often sharing the airplane with another new hire. Get some experience and they'll move you up into a bigger airplane and full time, once they know you can handle a 10 flying hour day that starts at 0400.

THAT is the way you get an Ag aviation job, and the process is similar for getting an Alaska job. First task is to make some phone calls. Then, show up. I have a friend right now, who has decided to change careers. He's been in communication with a Chief Pilot who I know with a big AK air taxi, asking questions: What type experience do I need? What kinds of airplanes should I be flying? What other stuff should I know (running air tours, you might want to know something about the country)? As the Chief pilot answers those questions, this fellow is working to fill those gaps in his knowledge/experience. Next spring, his plan is to go to Alaska, and he has the promise of at least a quick flight to evaluate his skills. To see if they want to invest the substantial training required to fly Part 135 in Alaska. That is NOT insubstantial training, and is a serious investment by the operator. In FAI, I used to marvel at Evert's out there in a C-46 or a DC-6, training new engineers and copilots with lots of landings and takeoffs and approaches. No sims for most of the airplanes used in bush AK, it's all done in the airplane, after hours.

Jobs are there, but YOU have to decide to go after them.

MTV

Can't speak for Alaska, but the Ag information being passed along is pretty much spot on. Most of us have sacrificed a lot of blood and sweat, nobody is going to be so impressed with a resume that they will be willing to hand over the keys to a 3/4 million dollar bird with chemicals loaded and send you out into the world. You will be a known commodity before that happens. So you just have to figure out how to become known. Also remember it's all the little things you are doing while becoming known. May not seem like all that important of a task but you can be sure the boss is watching to see how you take care of the little equipment and treating people etc.

2 cents worth from the peanut gallery.

Gump, Denalipilot,

You guys are right on. I taught seaplanes for 7 years here in the California Sierras for Norcal Aviation. Several of my students went on to AK for jobs, only to be disappointed that the seaplane experience needed was at least 100 hours. Not much time in my opinion, but most were determined to fly up there and with some personal connections and hard work they finally made it. No short cuts.

The same process for flying AG and AK continues if you want to fly fires. We see HUNDREDS of applications from 40,000 hour airline pilots to military jocks, corporate drivers, you name it. But the TYPE of flying experience is what matters. Airline, corporate pilots don't have a chance. With us at least, management is looking for a pilot with LOTS of low-level time, AK time, AG time, Mountain experience or previous fire time, such as a Fed Air Attack pilot or co-pilot on the heavies such as the P-3 or P2-V. Even with that, your attitude is the deciding factor for the 1 maybe 2 openings a year, if at all. Pilots don't like to hear that there are hundreds of spectacular pilots just as qualified, but very few with a great personality and attitude.

Used to be, you got hired in an Grumman S-2A, go with an instructor and do 25 drops, he would get out, and you spent the next 1-2 years scaring the living daylights out of yourself if you didn't kill yourself first. Not anymore. The pilots and families had enough. The equipment is vastly more sophisticated and expensive. With that comes an expectation of accuracy, safety, good judgment and minimal down time. So the training had to improve. Now you get hired into the OV-10 Bronco as an Air Attack, then after several years you may get selected to get screened to fly a tanker. Then 2 grueling years with several instructors before you can fly on your own. But the pressures of the job and intensity still takes its toll. How low down that canyon can I go and still make it out? What if the load doesn't go can I still make it? Watching 50-100 foot flames at someones backdoor while they are frantically throwing their kids and belongings into their car at the front, while you desperately try to buy them time dropping retardant, in shitty conditions, while the firefighters are taking serious heat and may get burned over. That will test any pilots judgment and nerves. Few of our guys are ex-fighter pilots, they can attest to that. How far do you push it? Is it worth it? Its written in pilots blood, and many times its not worth the self-imposed risk.

The AK or Ag experience and discipline is the same, its just amazing the training and screening hasn't continued to improve. Mother Nature hasn't changed. Yet the same mistakes continue to be made. Many AG pilots many have found out with their lives when the USFS started contracting for SEATS. Very experienced AG pilots have been killed flying fires in the last few years, after the AG operator got a fire contract and just went out and did it. Minimal training. Frustrating.

AK, Ag, Aerial Firefighting, all hard to describe until you have done it, like you said.

Village life...load/unload #1000 payload several times a day...clean up puke...haul stinking fish...fight the weather...wing covers on/wing covers off...answer the same stupid questions 10 times a day...lose those around you that are "good" pilots...what a blast!:D

gb

Hell yeah!!! That's the fun part.

Gump

Hey Splash,

Here's a question for you. Maybe this doesn't go on in CA but it absoulutly drives me nuts here in CO. Why can't we get on a fire before 10 o'clock? We cry and whine about how dangerous fire work is then start briefing at 8. Hour to hour and a half brief, hike time to get there and I'm lighting the fire at fricken 10 o'clock. Maybe an hour or two where we are doing some good work then we are fighting mother nature at her worst. Putting folks in harms way so we feel compelled to keep flying to protect them. Sometimes I feel like we are trying to keep the money flowing because then we get scary news pictures etc.

Why can't we brief at 3 or 4 and start the hike at daybreak and get some work done. Ought to be pulling off the fire for a break when extreme conditions are going on in the afternoon and back on for a couple hours in the evening.

If we managed AG like we do fire what would food cost? Maybe it would be a good thing, I don't know. I do know we are loosing tools every day as it is now with EPA, Dept of AG, FAA etc. I always wonder what kind of pickle we are going to be in when all our food comes into the country like our oil does. Thats where things are going. Sometimes I don't think things look to good for my 3 year old. Of course Dad probably said the same thing for me.

Enjoy it while we can.

That is right on GB.........are u sure your son wants to do that Tell him to go to AK Airlines as a mech. at least u will get passes to fly

gbflyer wrote:Village life...load/unload #1000 payload several times a day...clean up puke...haul stinking fish...fight the weather...wing covers on/wing covers off...answer the same stupid questions 10 times a day...lose those around you that are "good" pilots...what a blast!:D

gb

I'm just amazed that Ag Aviation is one of the prime qualifications for many wildland fire flying jobs, when in fact the vast majority of ag aviators NEVER fly in mountainous terrain or a lot of wind and turbulence, and almost ALL the forest fires occur in terrain, and often involve turbulence and wind.

Sometimes, the official set of qualifications for a particular job don't seem to have been too well thought out.....maybe...

MTV

I don't think it's the type of flying as much as it is the type of guys who do the job. An old Alaska Sled driver or old AG guy would not make a good captain in a 767. The skills and ability are certainly there, but the mindset is not.

Me, I enjoy pushing my nose into where I have to play "What If" constantly and work my way in and out of whatever situation I find myself. I don't think American Airlines, or the FAA, would like their airplanes flown that way. You can teach the firefighting skills, but not the attitude. The fire guys I know are as crazy as I am. In a good way of course!

Gump

One of the things I think causes issues is the acute attention it takes for long periods of time. The airline guys do it if they are on an approach and landing. (if hand flying) Fire is similar to ag while you are doing the drops and setting up, but at least a bit of a break going to get another load. Ag, especially helicopter where you load close just keeps you focused for long hours. May be my mental capacity isn't on par with other folks but I'm wiped after a long day of it. Vertical reference is the other place that seems do that. There just isn't any time to think about anything other than whats going on out the window.

Exactly. Kinda like scud running and playing in the white-out stuff. Time stands still and concentration has to be 100% for long, long periods of time.

Gump

Good points all. I know a 7 hour day spent at less than 200 feet, with a lot of maneuvering is pretty fatiguing as well, for the same reasons.

MTV

Meatservo,

Well the big reason is that the USFS MANAGES fires, they are not in a hurry to put them out unlike CALFIRE. We are very aggressive in that respect. CA state ground firefighters are 24 hours on the line, 24 off, being replaced with fresh crews. Not uncommon to go 36-38 hours before rest. Huge difference in fire fighting philosophy. Don't get me started on the absolute frustration we have supporting Fed fires. Since CO doesn't have their own dedicated fleet of aircraft like CA you are relying on a few remaining USFS contract tankers. In CA its not uncommon for aircraft to be on the fire at daybreak if its not smoked in. And turn times vary on any fire/base location. In Palmdale this last month, turn around times were 10-12 minutes. 4 minutes in the pit. Takeoff, gear up, drop, gear down, etc. Absolutely grueling in the 100 degree desert afternoon with 20-30 knot winds. Refueling every 2-2.5 hours. And its single pilot in the S2F-3AT. Ag is a good prep.

MTV,
Gump is exactly correct. AG pilots have the stick and rudder skills, judgment and mental fortitude to carry over to aerial firefighting. That is hard to teach. Its not a simple transition though, because of the points you made regarding conditions and terrain. That is why several AG pilots have died in the last few years getting contracts with the USFS with minimal training going out and "trying" it.

Same with AK flying, if you can manage good judgment and solid flying skills and make it out of there alive after several years, with some sense of humor, it helps, not guarantees that you will get looked at in aerial firefighting. Some good AT-802F pilots sitting in Porterville. They know their limits and the 802 limits well.

Yeah, I hear you guys hired Patty...

MTV