I currently hold a Commercial rotorcraft helicopter, instrument helicopter rating. I want to eventually have a commercial, instrument rating in an airplane. I have spoken to a few instructers and have recieved different answers. If you have references that would be great.

What do I need to do for each level of license?

Am I adding a catagory or class?

Am I considered a student pilot when I solo?

Does the instrument rating automatically transfer?

I fly blackhawks for the Army. The Blackhawk has a tailwheel. Can I count my Blackhawk time as tailwheel time for insurance purposes? I know it is not the same, but I am looking for a technical answer. Although, doing a roll on landing in a blackhawk is pretty much exactly like landing a citabria from a control perspective.

thank you.

Answers:

1) You need to complete the training and maneuvers specified in part 61 of the FAR. READ the regs at: http://www.faa.gov/library/, and save us the trouble--its all spelled out in there, and in the Practical Test Standards for the certificates you seek.

2) Both

3) Yes, for the purposes of operating an aircraft type for which you are not rated.

4) No Helicopter instrument ratings do not transfer, and in fact if you hold both helo and fixed wing instrument ratings, you must maintain currency in BOTH to remain eligible to fly them.

5) Not even.

MTV

I'm a retired AH- 64 guy and like you got my rotorcraft first, courtesy of a rich uncle. It used to be 10 hours and demonstrate profiency for the airplane PP. My first checkride and license was the commercial. I had a checkride for the instrument as well. I don't remember writtens though. Of course unless things have changed it takes 100 hours in an airplane to get the commercial. Do not do what I did, take the private pilot checkride and then take the instrument check ride. The standards are different for a commercial pilot getting his instrument rating. The written standards may or may not be different, but most check pilots will expect more from a commercial pilot.
Your 60 time will count only for total time for insurance. Your turbine time should count as well. Run on landings in a helicopter are not the same, at least they are not in an Apache, no airplane in the world has a rudder with as much authority as an Apache tail rotor has, I assume the same is true for a Blackhawk. Yes the control inputs are the same, but I've never seen an airplane guy that could hover even though he knows what to do with the controls.
I never settled the argument about being a student. I am sure the student plea won't work if you have a violation. However you cannot carry passengers etc. until you get an airplane license. You are a commercial pilot, demand the respect due to you, and act accordingly. You are a PIC in your unit aren't you?
There are some good things though. Your yearly ARMY rides count as a BFR, your insurance may recognize the "extra" training, and all of your helicopter instrument procedures count as well, so even if you haven't flown an airplane in a long time, you still won't need a comptenancy check. Also if you get your flight doc. to do the paper work, you won't need to buy a FAA physical. Some docs will or can some won't or can't.
Are you a Warrant or a RLO?

I have read part 61 a few times, it is not written as clearly as I prefer. If I am getting an additional class rating then according to part 61.63 (c) 4 then I "Need not meet the specified training time requirements prescribed by this part ....". I am trying to find out if I can apply that to myself. I have talked with instructers who argue I can, and with those who argue I cannot.

I realize flying a plane is different than flying a helicopter and I understand and agree that I need training on those differences, but I do not see why I would need to do a day and night cross country flight and things like that. I already know how to navigate. At $128 dollars an hour for instruction I would like to save as many hours as possible.

Not withstanding the different capabilities of a citabria and a blackhawk, I just meant they were the same as far as the way I shoot my approach and flare.

I am a CW2, I was able to use my military trainig to get a 5% discount on insurance which was nice. I am actually in the process of submitting all the paperwork to keep my plane on our military airfield which will be very nice. I found the rules for it in AR95-2 and just assembled a packet. All I need now is the garrison commanders approval. That will give me a safe place to park it which will cost me nothing. Our simulator also counts for total time so I have been flying it as much as possible. I am up to almost 140 hours of sim time, most of it instruments, which puts my total time at about 400. I am not a PIC. I have been out of flight school about 2 years and I have gotten less than a 100 hours of real flight time in that period. The sad thing is I am one of the most often flown PIs. There is only one guy who has been here as long as me who has more hours and he is just barely beating me. We have guys who have been here longer than me with less than 80 hours to show for it. That is one of the biggest reasons I went out and started trying to get my private license, I love flying and I just do not get enough flight time. Every dollar I manage to save whether it be from not paying an instructer or insurance discounts is just more flight time I can afford.

Mike

From FAR 1: Category:

(1) As used with respect to the certification, ratings, privileges, and limitations of airmen, means a broad classification of aircraft. Examples include: airplane; rotorcraft; glider; and lighter-than-air; and

(2) As used with respect to the certification of aircraft, means a grouping of aircraft based upon intended use or operating limitations. Examples include: transport, normal, utility, acrobatic, limited, restricted, and provisional.

Class

(1) As used with respect to the certification, ratings, privileges, and limitations of airmen, means a classification of aircraft within a category having similar operating characteristics. Examples include: single engine; multiengine; land; water; gyroplane; helicopter; airship; and free balloon

So, I assume you hold a rotorcraft (category), helicopter (class) certificate, right?

If you wish to fly a fixed wing airplane, you will need to be rated for airplane (category), single engine land (class), for example.

From part 61:

§ 61.63 Additional aircraft ratings (other than on an airline transport pilot certificate).
(a) General. To be eligible for an additional aircraft rating to a pilot certificate, for other than an airline transport pilot certificate, an applicant must meet the appropriate requirements of this section for the additional aircraft rating sought.

(b) Additional category rating. An applicant who holds a pilot certificate and applies to add a category rating to that pilot certificate:

(1) Must have received the required training and possess the aeronautical experience prescribed by this part that applies to the pilot certificate for the aircraft category and, if applicable, class rating sought;

(2) Must have an endorsement in his or her logbook or training record from an authorized instructor, and that endorsement must attest that the applicant has been found competent in the aeronautical knowledge areas appropriate to the pilot certificate for the aircraft category and, if applicable, class rating sought;

(3) Must have an endorsement in his or her logbook or training record from an authorized instructor, and that endorsement must attest that the applicant has been found proficient on the areas of operation that are appropriate to the pilot certificate for the aircraft category and, if applicable, class rating sought;

(4) Must pass the required practical test that is appropriate to the pilot certificate for the aircraft category and, if applicable, class rating sought; and

(5) Need not take an additional knowledge test, provided the applicant holds an airplane, rotorcraft, powered-lift, or airship rating at that pilot certificate level.

(c) Additional class rating. Any person who applies for an additional class rating to be added on a pilot certificate:

(1) Must have an endorsement in his or her logbook or training record from an authorized instructor and that endorsement must attest that the applicant has been found competent in the aeronautical knowledge areas appropriate to the pilot certificate for the aircraft class rating sought;

(2) Must have an endorsement in his or her logbook or training record from an authorized instructor, and that endorsement must attest that the applicant has been found proficient in the areas of operation appropriate to the pilot certificate for the aircraft class rating sought;

(3) Must pass the required practical test that is appropriate to the pilot certificate for the aircraft class rating sought;

(4) Need not meet the specified training time requirements prescribed by this part that apply to the pilot certificate for the aircraft class rating sought unless the person holds a lighter-than-air category rating with a balloon class rating and is seeking an airship class rating and

(5) Need not take an additional knowledge test, provided the applicant holds an airplane, rotorcraft, powered-lift, or airship rating at that pilot certificate level.

§ 61.129 Aeronautical experience.
(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:

(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in airplanes.

(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least—

(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and

(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes.

(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part that includes at least—

(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5 hours must be in a single-engine airplane;

(ii) 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a single-engine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;

(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;

(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(v) 3 hours in a single-engine airplane in preparation for the practical test within the 60-day period preceding the date of the test.

(4) 10 hours of solo flight in a single-engine airplane on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part, which includes at least—

(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and

(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.


According to this, you can count a lot of your helicopter PIC time, but you'll have to have at least 50 hours PIC in a fixed wing airplane, and follow the other specified requirements.

And, this also suggests you'll have to complete the fixed wing cross countrys. There's more to that than navigation, actually.

Also, take a look at the PTS for those tasks you'll have to complete. The key there is the matrix at the front, which shows what tasks must be completed on the practical test if you alread hold certain ratings.

You won't have to do nearly as much flying as someone with no certificates, in any case.

A helicopter of any kind will not substitute for a tailwheel airplane for that endorsement, no more than a tailwheel endorsement would qualify you to land a helicopter. It isnt' the approach that's most critical in a tailwheel aircraft.

MTV

I was not saying that I did not need a tailwheel endorsment because I fly a helicopter with a tailwheel. I was just wondering if I could count it for insurance purposes. I am going to call Avemco tomorrow and see what they say. I suppose that is what I should have done in the first place.

Yep, sorry about that, it was in your first note, re the tailwheel deal. By all means, call your insurance carrier on that one.

Also, you might (and I would in this case) call your local Flight Standards District Office of the Friendly Aviation Administration, and specifically ask them exactly what it is you will be required to do, flight time wise, to prepare for the Commercial, Single Engine Land add on. Get it in writing, and hand it to the DPE at the outset of the Practical, and it'll smooth things, my guess.

MTV

Tailwheel helicopter time WILL NOT count towards Fixed Wing tailwheel with regards to insurance any more than you could count it vice versa...they are 2 completely different animals.

It is the transition from flying to 3 point attitude that is critical on the tailwheels along with the ground handling...this is not the same on a tailwheel equipped helicopter. When was the last time you heard of a rotorcraft doing a ground loop on landing because the tail got too far outside the hourglass? A helicopter can fly sideways if needed, but a fixed wing will not.

Unless things have changed, 10 hours and demonstrate proficiency will get you the airplane private pilot. I can't tell you where the 10 hours came from, I don't know. Then you start checking the blocks. It's not hard, if you can land in a confined area under goggles, then you can do anything required for an airplane commercial. It's just a matter of practice.
Insurance is just what it is, don't try to logically figure it out. I still think you may get some additional discounts for taking a yearly BFR for example, but I don't know. lowflybye is an aviation insurance guy, he does it for a living. listen to him on insurance.
FAR'S are like AR'S. There is some "wiggle" room. Whatever you or more likely your instructor can get your FSDO to go for then becomes law. We fall outside of the "normal" student and that confuses people. Don't confuse FAA and ARMY either, for example all of your -60 time counts as PIC time for the FAA and insurance, even though you haven't made PIC yet.
Civilian aviation isn't like military aviation at all. Everything in the military is laid out, precise and to the point. Tain't that way in the civilian world

As mentioned above, contact the FSDO and get the short & accurate answer from them. I am a military fixed-wing pilot - in my case the process was pretty simple. I already had my PPL, so I took the writtens for commercial and instrument. I took proof of passing scores with my military log book and aviator designation to the FSDO. They looked it all over and issued me a new C/I license. Same procedure for those that lacked the PPL, they just had to take the written for that as well. Your situation is obviously slightly different given the nature of your training, but the transition training should not be extensive.

The obvious sidenote to all of this is that holding the paperwork doesn't qualify you fly a specific aircraft. Some of my buddies that were handed a PPL and had no civilian experience didn't know what to do with it. Insurance requirements aside, spending some time training with a civilian CFI is money well spent. Civilian flying is just a different animal. Not better or worse - just different.

a64,

How can both pilots in an H-60 claim PIC time, unless one of them is a CFI? I'd be very careful claiming SIC time as PIC time. Maybe there's some kind of exemption there for military that I don't know of, but I'd want that one in hard and fast ink before I logged it as PIC.

PIC is defined by the FAA as that time in which you are the sole manipulator of the controls. I'd bet that if you are meeting that test in the H-60 as second pilot, you can log it as PIC. Otherwise, I think you'd have to log it as SIC.

Again, maybe there's some kink there I'm not aware of, but I'd be really careful logging PIC time, unless you really fill that square.

MTV

One of the hardest transistions for me is going from Army publications to the FAR's and other things like that. Like you said the Army spells everything out exactly which results in way too many manuals to be familiar with but atleast when you have a question you can find a definite answer. Plus if I really am lost on something standards is at most a building away.

AVEMCO said the tailwheel time does not count. Oh well. I still think it was worth a try to ask.

If some of you think these questions were a bit ridiculous you should hear some of the stuff we come up with when we blackhawk pilots are sitting around playing "stump the chump". We have discussed everything from the stability of a helicopter with a rotor system on the bottom to turning off our generators in a power critical situation just to remove the little bit of power required to turn them.

Today just happened to be the day of my annual flight physical and I asked the flight doctor if he could sign off my civillian medical. He said he would have to go to some specific class to be able to sign off the civillian medical and he has just not gone yet. None of the flight doc's here have.

Mike

I've found that too - many of the Navy flight docs that take care of us don't have whatever endorsement is required to sign off FAA flight physicals. And that one's that do have are very low-key about it, guess they don't want the flood gates to open.

There is a proposal on the table for military flight physicals to be recognized by the FAA. There is also a proposal for the FAA to recognize experience as a military flight instructor toward a CFI(I), much like they give you P/C/I ratings. So if you ever end up in an instructor billet you might be able to pick up one more ticket on the outside.

The FAA not recognizing military physicals is ridiculous. They in fact do recognize the physicals because military aircraft fly in the national aerospace system. The fact you can fly an AH-64 or an F-16 with a military medical, but not a 172 is stupid.
Now, I can maybe see not automatically granting a CFI to a military IP. The whole experience and attitude is completely different in the civilian world.
Sorry a little off topic, but at least in the spirit of the thing

I absolutely agree on the medical issue - a military annual flight physical is just as thorough as a 1st class FAA medical, to include the EKG, so why they have not recognized it before now is a msytery. Probably simply an issue of two big bureaucratic arms that don't communicate.

The CFI proposal would not just deliver a CFI based on military flight instructor experience. Rather it would recognize the military experience and offset the total training required to earn the CFI - to what extent I'm not sure of though. I'm not sure if it will be retroactive either, but for anyone that once was a military flight instructor and wants to be a CFI it is worth looking into.

a64,

Just a nitpicky point here, and not trying to start a fight, but I would point out that military aircraft are by definition "Public Aircraft" in the FAR's. While they may indeed operate within the NAS, their standards are not in any way overseen or approved by the FAA, nor are any accidents investigated by civil authority.

Police departments and other government entities operating aircraft do not, by the FARs, HAVE to have pilots with pilot certificates OR with medicals, though I don't know of anyone doing that these days, for liability, not FAA reasons. In fact, not that many years ago, I knew of at least one police agency that had a couple of pilots flying with NO pilot certificate, and no medical, except whatever the agency required for its LE function.

When I flew for an LE agency, I was required to go through an unbelievably extensive (and expensive) physical annually for the agency, including a stress EKG, and a lot of other tests. My doc was also an AME, so he combined the two, and that was a good deal for me and the agency.

ANY military doc who's authorized to give military flight physicals can get authorized as an AME, if he chooses to do so, and it's not a big deal. Put the blame where it's due: the doctors choose not to get the authorizations.

Any way you cut it, there is VERY different PAPERWORK involving a civilian physical than a military, and THAT'S what the FAA training addresses, the FAA assumes any doc can read the standards and evaluate them. Record Keeping is the biggy there.

You still didn't answer my question regarding two military pilots logging PIC in a UH 60. Did I miss something? I doubt that Army regs are that much different..

MTV

MTV,
Sorry, I didn't even notice that post. Most, but not all military aircraft are public catagory. You are correct there. My point was simply that my military physicals were far more comprehensive than the civilian ones. I hate to say that I don't think it's record keeping, I think the number of military pilots that would exercise their military physicals as FAA physicals is rather small and that may be the reason. ARMY flt docs are expensive for the military and they aren't trigger pullers, so therefore there are fewer than needed. Most see their time too valuable to do FAA paperwork. There was no record keeping or paperwork required for my APART to count as a BFR.
Both pilots can log PIC time in an ARMY aircraft, but only under unusual circumstances. For example, I could log ME time and the other pilot could log MP time, both a form of PIC. ME = maintenance evualuator and MP = maintenance pilot.
You see ARMY PIC and FAA PIC have completely different meanings. ARMY meaning = who is in charge. FAA = who is flying. The unit commander would be in charge of the whole flight, but he was almost always not a PIC.
One of the hardest things for military pilots to come to grips with is just how "lax" civilian flying is.
Sixth Cav standards office had a letter on file from the San Antonio FSDO that all ARMY PI time could be considered PIC time for FAA purposes. The same letter said that .2 could be added to each flight because of the difference in the way the ARMY logged time. Yes, I know that was/is good only at Ft. Hood. That is part of what confuses military pilots. Military standards don't vary. FAA ones vary from one FSDO to another and even within FSDO's.
There are many differences, O2 altitudes and times, military altimeters have to be within 70 feet, not 75 etc. Aircraft currency etc, etc. and the same term will have different meanings adds to the confusion

I talked to my local FSDO today and learned some good information. All my PI time does count as PIC time. They did not have a specific reference, they just said that was the way it was. They also thought I would not need the instrument training to get the instrument rating, but they wanted to dig a little deeper before they gave their final answer. I have never heard of getting a time credit because of the way we log time vs civillians logging. I am going to ask them about that as well. While I am at it I am going to ask about the medicals as well.

In the civillian world, in a two pilot air craft how do they handle the time logged? Does only one person ever touch the controls? Do they keep track of how much of the flight each were on the controls? Split it 50/50? A majority of the flights I fly the "PIC" never touches the controls at all. One guy in particular who likes to fly with me on just about all of his flights never touches a radio or the controls at all. He just lets me do everything, which is the way I prefer it as well, yet he logs the PIC time. Then again he has over 4000 hours of blackhawk time and I think he is tired of it.

Mike

Double posted on accident

redline,

Contrary to what a64 suggests, the FAR's are specific on most things, and logging flight time is one of those. The FAR's may differ from the Army's regulations, but that does not mean they are vague:

From FAR 61.51:

e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;

(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.

(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.

(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot—

(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;

(ii) Has a current solo flight endorsement as required under §61.87 of this part; and

(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.

(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:

(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or

(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.

So, if a UH 60 requires an ATP to pilot it, then both pilots MAY be able to log PIC time, IF the second pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls.

If one of the pilots is a flight instructor, and the OTHER pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls, then both could log PIC time.

No interpretation of a FSDO is going to supercede that FAR, believe me. That one is cast in stone, and there are numerous administrative decisions which removed a pilot's certificate for falsifying records in this regard.

A FSDO cannot authorize you to violate the FAR's, and the FAR's, while they aren't the easiest things to FIND a particular definition or regulation in, are VERY specific, and that too has been upheld by NTSB decisions as well as administrative law judges.

Be VERY careful in logging flight time, unless you can find something in the FAR's which allows you to circumvent 61.51. It's pretty plain.

Now, in real life, do you have to keep track of every minute on the controls?? Technically, yes. All the FAA says is what is found in 61.51. If you fly the aircraft half the time, and the other guy flies it half the time, you can each log half the time. There is no ambiguity in that.

MTV