I know I'm still in training, but I can plan, right?

The options for renting an LSA here in Eastern Idaho are, well, few. I know of two, one of which I won't have nearly enough hours to be a possibility. The other is the one I (and other students) are using for training. It must be an LSA, as I've decided the Sport Pilot cert is right for me at the present time. My plan was to buy a plane anyway, so I probably should start thinking sooner rather than later, or so my thought process goes... Who says an airplane shouldn't be purchased before a house?!

I've put together an initial set of criteria:

Required:

• LSA
• Room for a tall guy (6'3", pretty much all in the legs)
• Backcountry-suitable

Desirable:
(note that some of these are really low on the list (perhaps in the "dreaming" realm), but I may as well put them out in the open)

• Good visibility
• Option for big tires
• Ability to carry some sort of bicycle (folding, even)
• Eventually add skis

Not really significant:
(in themselves, but may be directly correlated with other requirements/desirables)

• Tandem/Side-by-side
• Rag and tube/metal
• Taildragger/Tricycle

My budget is pretty low at this point. Financing might be an option (and might help build credit for that house loan down the road), but I don't think it's the best option. So, if I want to buy outright, I'd be looking for something in the <$20k range. With some financing, I'd be willing to go higher, but probably not for any more than $40k. Building isn't really an option right now - I have a Willys Jeep restoration project underway that's probably going to take another 2-3 years. And I'm aware that building isn't necessarily less expensive.

I think one of the most challenging requirements is the legroom. I don't need a whole lot of headroom (sitting down, I'm actually quite average). Any general suggestions for this (besides amputation, I hear that hurts and makes walking difficult)?

I've dug around for a while online and talked to folks, and have an initial list of possibilities, although some are probably above my price threshold. The list goes from the vintage to the modern.

• Taylorcraft BC-12D (definitely appears to be the value leader, although particular care in inspection/history is required)
• Piper J-3 Cub
• Avid Flyer (are there multiple variants?)
• Kitfox (the older version I sat in was a bit tight, but I've been told the newer version has more legroom)
• Highlander
• Rans S-7 or S-6 (I'm quite sure this would be out of my price range, but I may be wrong)

Any thoughts or suggestions? Anybody have one of these planes (or another suggested one) that would be willing to take me along for a ride in exchange for gas money (or at least let me sit in the left/front seat and make airplane noises) to get a feel for it?

And to nip it in the bud - a Maule isn't an option!

I might suggest a Zenith 750 altho the 20,000 range might get exceeded.....

Ben............A 801 driver over here in Jackson Hole.

I know we have a member with a Kitfox on here from Malad ,ID. Might be worth going and sitting in.

The Avids and the Kitfox I,II,III,IV and all too small for a 6 footer. And no room for a bike. The Highlander would be perfect BUT it will set you back at least 50k. You might find an older s6 or s7 with a 2 stroke motor in the 20k range. A Zenith 750 will set you back 50k (+). Even a 701 will be 30k(+). Might find a Sky Raider II,III in your price range. But same bagage issue.
Keep an eye on Barnstormers and be ready to buy quickly. The "great deals" USUALLY go fast. And a plane that meets all your requirements for 20k would be a "great deal".

S-12Flyer wrote:Might find a Sky Raider II,III in your price range. But same bagage issue.

Please consider bicycle hauling to be deep into the "dream" realm. But, it would be nice to have transportation once arriving at my destination.

It looks like the Sky Raider II is cramped (jumpseat for the rear seat), but the Super Sky Raider (is this what you meant by Sky Raider III?) would probably be an option. Very little information on the 'net about either of these...

Also, I happened across the Ridge Runner III while trying to come up with information on the Sky Raiders. I had forgotten about this one. Seems like a reasonable one to add to the list. I know I've seen it mentioned here on BCP a few times.

Champ. 7DC if you can find one, or an AC converted to 85hp.

I've been meaning to ask the crowd for myself but I'll ask for you, How does the J4 measure up? The J4E is not LSA but all the others are.

I'm starting to work on my wife about the tandem seat arrangement. She spent part of her youth working hunting camps in Alaska. Back seat of a Super Cub. She wants SBS in which case it will be a Tcraft. If we can get decent money out of my hole in the water (boat) I'll look at a Cubcrafters S2. I don't know about the long legs in the Taylorcraft (I'm a shrimp 5'7") but the Champ should be comfortable for you. If you really like adverse yaw a chief (yokes not sticks, like the Taylorcraft.) is in your price range and is SBS. Again, I don't know about the leg room. They are both 75mph cruise or there abouts, the Tcraft is quite a bit quicker.

Go to Airbum.com. Bud Davisson has reviews of all the little ones.

Emory has your answer. The champ. I am 6'5" and had a 85 hp. I tilted the seat back by putting an one inch long link between the front seat leg and the attach point on the floor. A large roller chain master link works. The scout I fly is the same thing, except it has an adjustable front seat, so the link is not needed.

mckim wrote: I happened across the Ridge Runner III while trying to come up with information on the Sky Raiders. I had forgotten about this one. Seems like a reasonable one to add to the list. I know I've seen it mentioned here on BCP a few times.

I've got a Ridge Runner III and am very happy with it. I am 5'10, 150 lbs.

Rocky Mountain Wings puts their heart and soul into each Ridge Runner, and can custom make a plane to suit your mission parameters. I highly recommend them. 208-371-9221 http://www.realflying.com/ They are presently custom building me a second Ridge Runner, enhanced for STOL ops and more cargo carrying capability. The new bird has an adjustable front seat, to adjust for leg length.

The other planes you mentioned, the Sky Raider (Super) is a lot like the Ridge Runner model 3 in that the wings are basically the same airfoil and square area. Other differences include cowling style, muffler placement et etc. The "Super" is a new model. I have yet to see one finished, flying or for sale anywhere.

There are a few Avid and Kitfox guys here and they enjoy their planes immensely. Also, the Just Aircraft planes look nice. Properly outfitted, I think any of these planes would be an excellent performer, but bear in mind that all these mentioned planes are small by design.

If you're ever in Logan you can swing by and sit in my BC-65 to see if it's too small. I fit in it just fine, but I'm also only 5'8"

I will have to agree with Patrol guy in the suggestion of a Champ, I have a 'back issue" and had looked at a the panes you are looking at. As for the side by side planes, they are quite tight with two people aboard and limited in space. I ended up settling on buying a heavily modified Champ and am very happy with it. I have since purchased a Rans S-7 and am going to sell the Champ
Another guy you may want to talk to is 185bushbird that posts on this site He is tall also and he has flown many different types of planes and could possibly give you some advice as to what would fit you best
Good luck,
Keith

The J-3, T-craft or Champ are all good aircraft. The problem with all of them is that you will need more HP than the stock 65 horse engines. Eastern ID is fairly high elevation to start. At best they will be a solo aircraft in the summer. And not as backcountry friendly as the new light-weight, high-lift kits. The modified higher hp ones are bit out of your cash price range. Also you will need a knowledgable mechanic to do a pre-buy on all of them. You're talking about 50 year old aircraft. Another big issue with them is that most have no electrics. Prop starting, battery powered radios and GPS and no lights/strobes. If they do have electrics they are sure to be a single place flyer to stay under gross.
Before you get too excited about financing a plane, you might want to look into it. Not quite like buying a car.

mckim wrote:....Please consider bicycle hauling to be deep into the "dream" realm. But, it would be nice to have transportation once arriving at my destination. ......

That's where those long legs of yours turn into an asset!
Something to thnk about when considering older certificated airplanes which fit into the LSA parameters-- sometimes upping the horsepower can involve converting the airplane to a different model number which exceeds the LSA gross weight. Sometimes the same deal if done by STC. Upping the gross weight was a desirable feature...until the 1320# max LSA thing came along.
Emory Bored suggested a 7DC or 85-horse converted 7AC Champ . Make sure these are LSA-compliant. I've seen Champs data-plated as a 7AC/conv DC (or CCM, or BCM). I can't be sure but I seem to recall that maybe a DC is too heavy for LSA but a BCM or CCM is OK. Also, if ever converted to "no-bounce gear" which increased the gross weight above LSA limits, it's no longer LSA-legal even if you put the stock gear back on.
Ditto for T-Crafts, I seem to recall that some were bumped up in the horsepower department by converting them to a later model- like from a BC-12D to an F19. Again, gross weight bumps up too which is great except as far as LSA is concerned.
You should talk to Keith (wwhunter) about his hotrod Champ to see if it'll fit your needs-- it sounds like a good one. I can't recall what powerplant he has, or if it's the "superchamp" or the "kickass champ" (maybe those were somebody else's?)-- Keith?

hotrod150 wrote:

mckim wrote:....Please consider bicycle hauling to be deep into the "dream" realm. But, it would be nice to have transportation once arriving at my destination. ......

That's where those long legs of yours turn into an asset!
Something to thnk about when considering older certificated airplanes which fit into the LSA parameters-- sometimes upping the horsepower can involve converting the airplane to a different model number which exceeds the LSA gross weight. Sometimes the same deal if done by STC. Upping the gross weight was a desirable feature...until the 1320# max LSA thing came along.
Emory Bored suggested a 7DC or 85-horse converted 7AC Champ . Make sure these are LSA-compliant. I've seen Champs data-plated as a 7AC/conv DC (or CCM, or BCM). I can't be sure but I seem to recall that maybe a DC is too heavy for LSA but a BCM or CCM is OK. Also, if ever converted to "no-bounce gear" which increased the gross weight above LSA limits, it's no longer LSA-legal even if you put the stock gear back on.
Ditto for T-Crafts, I seem to recall that some were bumped up in the horsepower department by converting them to a later model- like from a BC-12D to an F19. Again, gross weight bumps up too which is great except as far as LSA is concerned.
You should talk to Keith (wwhunter) about his hotrod Champ to see if it'll fit your needs-- it sounds like a good one. I can't recall what powerplant he has, or if it's the "superchamp" or the "kickass champ" (maybe those were somebody else's?)-- Keith?

LSA does not go by aircraft gross weight... But Maximum take off weight. I know a guy that got his 1550# gross weight kitfox LSA approved by following the letter of the rules and placarding for a maximum take of weight of 1320. Pretty much the same as placarding for max HP on the CC..

That trick might work for experimentals but I would not try it on anything else. I would have to see the ruling from the FAA on that one. If that was all it took you could fly any 2 place. Print up a placard and slap it on. Presto changeo instant LSA.
120's,140's, 150's, Supercubs, Citabrias and a host of others. I'm not about to risk my ticket on a card trick.
"But officer... it says right here on this card I made up that my Supercub has a MTOW of 1325. That makes me legal. Right?"
Far too many great "legal" LSA's out there to take a chance on semantics.
Remember.. The FAA's moto is "We're not happy until you're not happy."

hotrod150,
Yep, you are thinking of my Champ and possibly also another one that was owned by a guy in southern MN. He used to always sign with "kickass Champ". His had a 90HP. Mine has "SuperChamp" on the cowl put on by the builder.
I purchased this Champ (7AC-CONV) from a fellow poster on this site when he upgraded. It was built by his uncle. When it was built I think he installed every option for future 'bush flying' that was possible. 39 gallons of fuel, droop tips, VG's, fishpole tube, seaplane door, rear side opening door so one can access the baggage area easily. It is LSA complient with a GW of 1300lbs. It is powered with an O-235 C2C so the HP (108/115) is considerably more then it came with from the factory. It is a very good performer and has served me well. I put 26" AkBushwheel Airstreaks on it but really don't fly it much on them since I bought it for float flying. Currently it is back on the PK 1500 floats. It has its 'hangar rash" and bumps and bruises but I wouldn't hesitate flying it most anywhere. Haven't really advertised it yet except for on the Aeronca site I stated I was going to sell.
Keith (WWhunter)

The picture posted by Scout, of the White/Orange and yellow striped Champ (1st photo) in the thread, "Biggest practical tires for a 75HP Champ" is my Champ.

S-12Flyer wrote:That trick might work for experimentals but I would not try it on anything else. I would have to see the ruling from the FAA on that one. If that was all it took you could fly any 2 place. Print up a placard and slap it on. Presto changeo instant LSA.
120's,140's, 150's, Supercubs, Citabrias and a host of others. I'm not about to risk my ticket on a card trick.
"But officer... it says right here on this card I made up that my Supercub has a MTOW of 1325. That makes me legal. Right?"
Far too many great "legal" LSA's out there to take a chance on semantics.
Remember.. The FAA's moto is "We're not happy until you're not happy."

Page 4473

Paragraph (1) Maximum Certificated
Takeoff Weight
Some commenters stated that lacking a definition of maximum takeoff weight, aircraft with fairly high performance
characteristics could meet the definition of light-sport aircraft by limiting the approved weight and payload of the
airplane. The FAA considers this a valid concern and has provided some additional constraints on the weight as
detailed below. The maximum weight of a light-sport aircraft is the sum of:
(1) Aircraft empty weight;
(2) Weight of the passenger for each seat installed;
(3) Baggage allowance for each passenger; and
(4) Full fuel, including a minimum of the half-hour fuel reserve required for day visual flight rules in § 91.151(a)(1).
Some commenters wanted the weight increased to permit stronger aircraft structures, use of four-stroke or type certificated engines, electrical systems for avionics, starters for engines, or ballistic recovery systems. The FAA is increasing the weight limitation of the light-sport aircraft from the proposed 1,232 pounds (560 kilograms) to 1,320 pounds (600 kilograms). The originally proposed weight limitation was based on the 1,200-pound weight limitation proposed by the ARAC’s light-sport aircraft working group. The FAA agrees that there may be a safety benefit to light-sport aircraft designs to include provisions for currently produced typecertificated four-stroke engines and ballistic parachute recovery systems. Commenter’s submitted data that indicated that an additional 60 to 70 pounds would accommodate four-stroke aviation powerplants, and that an additional 30 to 40 pounds would accommodate the ballistic parachute recovery systems. For these reasons, the FAA has revised its proposed maximum takeoff weight limitation to 1,320 pounds (600 kilograms) for aircraft designed for operation on land. In addition, many commenters
requested that the proposed weight limitation be increased to accommodate flying boats, amphibious or float plane
aircraft designs. The FAA originally envisioned these kinds of aircraft in its proposed light-sport aircraft definition.
Recommendations from these commenters indicated weights ranging from 100 pounds to 250 pounds to allow
for amphibious or float plane capability. The rule provides for a maximum takeoff weight of 1,430 pounds for light-sport aircraft designed for operation on water. The 110-pound weight increase compared to an aircraft not designed for
operation on water is consistent with data submitted regarding weight of floats for microlight type aircraft.


Note that it calls it out as maximum take off weight, not gross weight...

akavidflyer wrote:Note that it calls it out as maximum take off weight, not gross weight...

But then there's also the limitation that if it has ever had a posted/legal maximum takeoff weight (or any other parameter, for that matter) greater that the LSA limit, it can never be an LSA-compliant airplane.

Does not change a thing. You can't just placard an aircraft with a higher gross and call it LSA compliant. Unless you are the builder and setting the limitations.

S-12Flyer wrote:Does not change a thing. You can't just placard an aircraft with a higher gross and call it LSA compliant. Unless you are the builder and setting the limitations.

Exactly. What I meant is that whatever the manufacturer set (or implicitly set based on max gross weight), stands. If it was modified to something higher, that will always be the restriction (for LSA compliance). In my mind, it wouldn't even make sense to have a max takeoff weight lower than max gross. How do you add weight after takeoff? That's like saying "to keep it under max takeoff, I'll just get it off the ground and have somebody throw my baggage up to me as I make a pass." Right.

hotrod150 wrote:

mckim wrote:....Please consider bicycle hauling to be deep into the "dream" realm. But, it would be nice to have transportation once arriving at my destination. ......

Ditto for T-Crafts, I seem to recall that some were bumped up in the horsepower department by converting them to a later model- like from a BC-12D to an F19. Again, gross weight bumps up too which is great except as far as LSA is concerned.
You should talk to Keith (wwhunter) about his hotrod Champ to see if it'll fit your needs-- it sounds like a good one. I can't recall what powerplant he has, or if it's the "superchamp" or the "kickass champ" (maybe those were somebody else's?)-- Keith?

You don't have to convert the Tcraft to an F19 to up the HP. Mine was born a 40 BC-65 with a gw of 1150 pounds. Now it has a C-85 with mini alternator and starter and a gw of 1285 pounds. You don't have to up the gross at all if you don't want to.