Backcountry Pilot

[retired user offline]

This accident was really an unfortunate event. My thoughts and prayers go out to his family and the instructor that had to witness the accident. I can't imagine how he must feel. Article

[Zzz]

Damn, that is really tragic. Seems like a very strange way to suffer a fatal crash too, on powering up to arrest sink after a bounce.

[retired user offline]

Damn, that is really tragic. Seems like a very strange way to suffer a fatal crash too, on powering up to arrest sink after a bounce.

Yup,

Hardly anything we would have to worry about (Torque Roll)...

I really can't imagine the horror the instructor felt watching the whole thing unfold. Spending 50 hours with anybody, teaching them anything, you would get to know them pretty well. Hopefully he will be able to let it go and get past it, to some extent.

[a64pilot offline]

Tragic yes, but let's see, an experienced tailwheel pilot with 1,500 TT takes 50 hours of dual to solo? Just because you can afford to fly "it" may not mean you are able to do so.
I'm callous, or maybe just jealous, you judge. But part of the tragedy is there is one less 51 now.

[retired user offline]

Tragic yes, but let's see, an experienced tailwheel pilot with 1,500 TT takes 50 hours of dual to solo? Just because you can afford to fly "it" may not mean you are able to do so.
I'm callous, or maybe just jealous, you judge. But part of the tragedy is there is one less 51 now.

I'm wondering about 50 hours being an insurance issue? (I may be terribly naive thinking you could even get insurance on a P51 but he had to have liability) It looked like he owned a T-6 and a King Air and while neither would prepare you to handle a Mustang, ya' gotta' think somebody other than the pilot decided on 50 hours of dual as some sorta' prerequisite.

[retired user offline]

I'm going to bet there aren't a whole lot of aircraft harder to handle than a P51. Watching them on the ground you get an idea they fly mostly on that big ol' merlin. That little tail and stubs for wings probably have little influence on the aircrafts direction below 100kts. Just observing them at airshows etc., they certainly use a lot of real estate to reach Vr. Judicious use of the throttle may be necessary to keep things pointed down the runway during the takeoff roll.

Just my observations. Certainly their must be a Mustang expert on board here?

Mark

[Savannah-Tom offline]

Just my observations. Certainly their must be a Mustang expert on board here?
Mark

I'm not an expert. But Dudley Henriques was a p-51 pilot and is an active participant in the usenet group rec.aviation.piloting. Here's what he and another guy had to say:



John is correct. This accident has all the markings of a classic torque out on the go-around. It should be noted that although it looks that way, the official investigation report is inconclusive at this early point in time and the accident has not yet been assigned a probable cause.
As for the 30 inches on go-around; no, this is not standard procedure for the 51. Standard procedure for this airplane is to set the propeller for 2700RPM on final. This allows up to 46" (METO)of MP for the go-around if necessary.
This by no means should be misconstrued to indicate that what John said was incorrect. If you have enough runway you could use 30 inches as was the directive in John's outfit but this would have had to be by tech order at Squadron, Group, or Wing level as it was not Dash-1 for the Mustang.
Dudley Henriques


Larry Dighera wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 21:13:58 -0500, Big John <[email protected]>
> wrote in <[email protected]>:
>
>> This describes a classic torque roll with high power, low airspeed and
>> not leading with enought right rudder to counter the torque
>>
>> I saw several of these first hand dring my years flying the P-51. We
>> ended up teaching new checkouts to only use 30 or so inches on go
>> around (at least until they got some airspeed back up and had enough
>> rudder to hold the torque).
>>
>> A bloody shame to lose both the pilot and aircraft.

[Skylane offline]

Strange coincidence. The August 07 issue of APOA pilot has an article about Barry Schiff soloing a P-51 at 69 years of age. There is a short discussion at the end of the article about the "Torque Roll" caused by to much power applied during a go around.

I agree, sad to see a P-51 and pilot leave us.

Some day if powerball ever comes through I would like to go down to Florida and get some duel at Stallion 51s place.

But for now I'll stick with flying P-51s on Microsoft

Fly safe, and God Bless. Bub

[a64pilot offline]

N6EA,
You are right, 50 hours is just too perfect a number not to be some kind of requirement. I have a tendency to jump to conclusions when I see someone that appears to have gotten in over their head because they were in a position economically to be "there" and weren't "there" because they had come up the ranks and paid their dues. There is no telling how many millions of dollars of lawsuits will come from this. I guess I'm just too cynical.
Piper years ago built a turbine version of the -51 that used a Chinook helicopter engine, I think. I bet that one was a hand full on a go-around. Anybody remember what it was called? Avenger or something wasn't it?

[Student Pilot offline]

N6EA,
Piper years ago built a turbine version of the -51 that used a Chinook helicopter engine, I think. I bet that one was a hand full on a go-around. Anybody remember what it was called? Avenger or something wasn't it?

Piper Enforcer

[Skylane offline]

What a bad week for flying.

2 P51s in Oshkosh, Stunt pilot in Ohio, float plane in Oregon, the Beaver in Alaska. 2 news choppers in Arizona. God knows what else that we haven't heard.

I'm sure the media will get most of the facts confused, giving the impression to non flyers how dangerous it is. Then they'll call some politicals and look for new laws to be passed to save us from ourselves.

We all hopefully realize the risk when we set out on an adventure. Weather, nasty crosswinds, mechanical issues, health issues and other personal baggage we pack along. But, thats why we have preventive maintenance and recurring training, expected the unexpected and plan for it.

Flying to Baker Saturday to their fly-in. I looked over several miles of timber and thought that would be ugly, there and there and I could make to that spot. Clearings, roads, hay fields anywhere for an island of safety.
I've been told more that once that altitude is insurance, and after reading Johns mishap in Idaho with the 206, and this weeks news, and NTSB reports, my next flight review will work on emergancy procedures.

I think a PLB will be coming in soon too. Just in case.

See ya, Fly safe, Bub

[Bonanza Man offline]

What a bad week for flying.

2 P51s in Oshkosh, Stunt pilot in Ohio, float plane in Oregon, the Beaver in Alaska. 2 news choppers in Arizona. God knows what else that we haven't heard.

I'm sure the media will get most of the facts confused, giving the impression to non flyers how dangerous it is. Then they'll call some politicals and look for new laws to be passed to save us from ourselves.

We all hopefully realize the risk when we set out on an adventure. Weather, nasty crosswinds, mechanical issues, health issues and other personal baggage we pack along. But, thats why we have preventive maintenance and recurring training, expected the unexpected and plan for it.

Flying to Baker Saturday to their fly-in. I looked over several miles of timber and thought that would be ugly, there and there and I could make to that spot. Clearings, roads, hay fields anywhere for an island of safety.
I've been told more that once that altitude is insurance, and after reading Johns mishap in Idaho with the 206, and this weeks news, and NTSB reports, my next flight review will work on emergancy procedures.

I think a PLB will be coming in soon too. Just in case.

See ya, Fly safe, Bub

Also consider a satellite phone. Until last weekend I had never used one and didn't know much about them. At an earlier seminar I asked the question why not a phone instead of a PLB? The answer was the sat phone will have limited usefulness as you don't always get service. Sounded reasonable. But then I got to thinking that if the sat phone doesn't work why would the PLB? You're counting on the satellite picking that up too. I made two calls from Schafer Meadows last week. We were in the pilots campground, which is in the woods as you know if you've been there and the other was from near the plane, out in the open. So I did some research. There are a number of sat phone companies but the best for US purposes is Globalstar. The one downside to them used to be they had limited to no service in Alaska. I have zero desire to go to Alaska but the phone works as well as any other since they upgraded the system in the summer of 2006. I was originally going to get a PLB first but after this demonstration I'm going with the sat phone.

[a64pilot offline]

I have a PLB that stays in the airplane always. I rent a Sat phone when I'm ferrying an airplane or otherwise think I may need one. PLB you pay for once. Sat phone you pay up front and then every month. Globalstar is cheapest, but all the Sat's aren't up yet so coverage can be spotty. Iridium can be rented for $35 a week and $1.50 a min if you use it. I figure I only rent one three or four weeks a year. For me it's better to rent. PLB is pretty rugged, water proof etc. Sat phone isn't.
Most of the time just flying around home my regular cell phone works. I so far have only rented a Sat phone when flying out of the country over water, but that of course is just me. The rental thing is nice because you can try before you buy.
Of course the Sat phone and PLB's use completly different satellites I'm sure.

[mtv offline]

BM,

A64 nailed the reason that a PLB is a better choice than the sat phone for emergency purposes--it is much more robust in design, and a lot more likely to function after an accident. THey are waterproof (sat phones are not) and shock resistant (again, sat phones are not).

As to coverage, the sat phones use different satellite constellations than do the PLB's. There are a LOT of rescue satellites up there, including the US SAR-SAT system AND the Russian COSPAS system. Also, the sat phone has to hit a satellite, and the satellite has to "see" an earth station--this is what limits Globalstar coverage--limited earth stations. Whereas the SAR-SAT system satellites are always in communication with RCC.

As to sat phones, Globalstar has limited coverage, though in the lower 48 states it's currently not too bad. Their promises of increased coverage have been made for a number of years, but they just haven't delivered. Just don't go very far north or west with Globalstar and expect them to work. I've used both side by side in comparison, and there simply was no comparison between Globalstar and Iridium. Iridium is also being used by the US military, so is more likely to be around a while. Last I heard, Globalstar was still fighting to stay solvent.

You are absolutely correct, however, that a sat phone can be a nice addition to your survival resources, and a great way to conduct more routine evolutions. They are not inexpensive (Globalstar is certainly the less expensive option) and believe me, they are a lot more fragile than the PLB's.

I'd still vote for the PLB as primary, and if you can swing it, a sat phone as a back up.

Try dialing that phone, keeping the antenna oriented just right, etc, with a broken back or arm, and burn injuries. The PLB requires a push of just one button.

MTV

[FloatFlyer offline]

As usual, MTV has the most accurate answer to the PLB/Sat phone thread. I had an Iridium sat phone from 2001 until Sept of '06 when I bought a new Globalstar phone. I have regretted that purchase ever since. A week ago I contacted Outfitter Satellite, my dealer, and had a long talk with a customer service rep. Globalstar is NOW telling them that their service will remain the same as it is now (very poor) until Feb of '07. I was told the same story this past March and things did not improve. I canceled my Globalstar subscription as of Sept 10th, and have renewed my Iridium subscription. I am currently waiting for my new "sim card" and a new battery for my old phone. This course of action was recommended to me by the Outfitter agent, her position was to wait and see in Feb IF Globalstar actually did something to improve their service. Outfitter is currently not recommending Globalstar.

Since I fly mainly in very remote locations, I also have a PLB, cell phone, flares, mirrors, and anything else I can think of to yell for help if I am unlucky enough to be stranded for whatever reason. Ford Wilson

[shortfielder offline]

I go along with Mr. Wilson. I carry a PLB for severe emergency. I carry a handheld incase I need help and someone is flying in the area. I carry a cell phone but always questionable if I will get reception. I will have a satellite phone as soon as I can afford it it. I would hate to get stranded somewhere and not be able to get in touch with someone. Not necesarily an accident, but just a mechanical failure. Are there any plans available for satellite (iridium) where you can just pay by the minute and not subscribe to a monthly payment plan? Gary

[GumpAir offline]

A64 nailed the reason that a PLB is a better choice than the sat phone for emergency purposes--it is much more robust in design, and a lot more likely to function after an accident. They are waterproof (sat phones are not) and shock resistant (again, sat phones are not).

Questions on PLB vs. Sat Phones...

Is there a 9-1-1 service with the sat phone? If so, who does it connect you with?

Does the phone autolocate with triangulation from it's satellites, or have built in GPS? Or, if down do you have to tell someone where you are? If the pilot was incapacitated or dead I can see where a passenger would have a hard time explaining their location.

Both sound like nice items to pack in the bag, but when in the "help, come get me" mode, the unfold an antenna and push a button simplicity of the PLB seems the best way to have the calvary on the way.

[Zzz]

Any posts regarding the T-craft corrosion/Willamette river crash were split to here.