Hello All

I am a fairly new, low time pilot (250 hours) with a recent tailwheel endorsement and live in the windy Texas panhandle. I am in a partnership that owns a 206 Cessna and a V35 Bonanza, so I have the go somewhere airplanes covered. I am looking for a fun flyer to gain experience. Initially most flying would be local, but I would eventually like to travel to some of the backcountry flyins. I do want to land grass, sand, etc. fairly rough locally. Also my 15 year old son would use the plane for training.

I started out wanting a Supercub, but they don't fit my budget right now (@50K). I have narrowed my search to Citabria 7GCBC and Rans S7S. I have researched all the previous info on this site about these planes. I am leaning toward the S7 due to lower operation costs, newer construction and open door flying.

I am looking for thoughts on which plane might be better in these areas.
Wind - It is windy here. Would the heavier 7GCBC handle winds much better than the S7?
Performance - We have fairly high DA in the summer (7-9K). Would one of these have an advantage?

I feel both of these are great planes. I would appreciate any thoughts those with experience in both might have.

Thanks

I also live in the Texas panhandle. Wind is always a major factor. I own a Husky and love it and in the backcountry in Idaho now. My son is looking for the same kind of bird as you. So from our research, this is what we have come to. The cessna 170B is a great plane and can be a great plane for what you want. The Citabria is also a great plane. For the money you have to spend, I think a Maule might fit you best. I looked at one yesterday here in Idaho that was for sale just under 50k. It was a nice bird. Maybe a little faster than the other two mentioned and can haul more. The guy said it was as easy to fly as a 170 and maybe easier. I have no clue as I have always liked the Maule but have never flown one.
Those are the birds we are looking for. I hope this helps. Good luck

The direct operating costs of the Rans will be about half of the Citabria. The heavier bird will probably handle the wind better, obviously, but below 20 mph or so the difference would be minimal. You won't take the Citabria places you could the S-7. If you plan to fly it a lot, the DOC's significant, if 50 hrs a year is the goal maybe not so much. Then the whole cert V. experimental thing, apples and oranges really. Or, you could just get a Maule

If I had access to a 206 camping, hauling, and traveling are covered. I would look for the newest, lowest hour TW in the budget. Nothing takes the fun out of flying like a worn out plane that always needs work.

Cheers...Rob

FWIW, you can fly a Citabria with the door off. I've done it a few times with mine. I found it easy to learm in, as they are fairly forgiving. Ive got 31" bush wheels on it, with a baby bushwheel and VGs. Only thing I wish I had was a baggage door, but that will be going in soon.
Ive never flown an S7, so I may be biased. But the 7GCBC will get you in and out of a lot of places. But as stated, it will be more expensive to run. Having said that, being able to land 300' gravel bars, and do gentlemens aerobatics on the way is a heckuva lot of fun!

David

Have you considered a PA12 Super Cruiser? You should be able to get one with your budget. Fairly fast with the stock gear. Pa18 gear slows them a bit though.

There are lots of 4 place planes out there that are economical to buy and operate, and don't depreciate; Cessna 170, or 170A, Stinson 108-1, -2, Piper pacer, 4 place Taylorcraft(uncommon), Aeronca Sedan(uncommon), are easy to fly. Best to pay a few more $ to get a lower time engine.

There are ~$50K Supercubs out there. They won't be modded out to high heaven, and the fabric will be several years old...but they are out there. I think I just saw one on Barnstormers the other day for $49K... It really is the best of the breed for off airport work...even when still in stock configuration (some would say that's better).

PA-11: http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_ ... --LSA.html

PA-18-95: http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_ ... r+Cub.html

Factors I use:

* Budget? How much $ down + training, travel, insurance, hangar ... to turn the key ( flip the mags )?

* Yearly operating costs.. maintenance, insurance, fuel, currency, storage ?

* ADs, SDR, SBs etc. print out significant ones and study. Or get honest advice.

* print out TCDS and understand it fully

* STCs. Is my airplane just plain Ginsu or a Swiss Army Knife? Can I change configures fast and easy?

* W/B. I DO NOT listen to people who simply break the law to get what they want. Can I deal with performance numbers.

* Probable times before engine and airframe overhauls and the cost? Can I take an engine overhaul, if times are high?

* if the above = average then re-sale = average too.

* print or buy this AC http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/media/faa-h-8083-19A.pdf

Talk to the people who insure, maintain and instruct with similar airframes. The market you are interested in is full of bottom feeders. Takes me years to decide on airplanes! But, I am happy I waited and did the research.

Here's 2c of real word experience from a fellow low-time pilot.

New Year's Day, this year, the weather had been dreadful forever and suddenly it's a bluebird clear snow-covered morning. Beautiful. Everyone who flies is already at the airport preflighting, with family & close friends expectantly in-tow for local scenic flights.

As the taxiway starts to get busy, the winds pick up in response to the heat of the sun. All the bigger GA aircraft depart as normal. The Carbon Cubs and Kitfoxes get airborne in about 50ft with developing strong winds, but boy are they getting their butts kicked in the turbulence, even at 200ft. Flying into the mountains would be sure to bring out the passenger sick bags.
By the time I rolled for T/O, it was blowing about 25 steady, a fair bit more in the mountains. Sure it was bumpy, but as we cruised amongst the snow covered valleys the passengers confirmed they were "ok" with the bumps, and my Mrs called it the best flight she's ever been on.
The last time we tried that in a Technam (~1000lbs lighter). My passenger has never been as keen to come flying ever since....

If wind and turbulence is a factor, there's something to be said for a heavier aircraft with a bit of wing loading, which you can still enjoy flying. But then, you already have the 206.

You can buy a really nice 170B for 30-35, which will leave you a ton of dough to mod it up and buy plenty of gas... My 170B was a sweet flying machine...

Thanks for the replies.

I have considered some of the other planes suggested. I really want tandem seating and a door/window to open when weather is nice.

Stolhunter - sounds like you're having fun. Let me know if you're in Ama and have time to stop. Id like to hear about your trip.

Courierguy - It was your and emflys posts that got me interested in the S7. My goal would be at least 100 hours a year so operation costs definitely are a factor.

SE660 - I have considered a PA 12, but most I see that have door changed to Supercub style have all the other SC mods and are nearly as high priced as a SC.

Clay - Would a 95 horse SC perform close to the S7 or 7GCBC? What about the PA 11? The one on barnstormers looks interesting. How big a deal are flaps? Any guesses of performance of 108hp in the PA 11?

Again thanks for the replies. If anyone else has any thoughts I'd like to hear them.

PA-11's are awesome! Rival a SC in certain scenarios. Love em.

Let's face it. It's all subjective. There are lots of planes out there. But none are the "perfect" plane for the backcountry. Heck, there's a big red Mooney that can be seen in the backcountry all over the west. Even Cherokee's can be flown into a lot of places. (OK a $200K Carbon Cub comes pretty darn close.)
You really need to make a list of attributes that you want in a backcountry plane and prioritize them. Then find a plane that best fits the "really important" ones.
I don't have a lot of free time at the moment so it was really important to me to have a plane that was low maintenance and that would not require a lot of tinkering. My 100 horse Rotax powered S-7 is pretty much "gas and go". It doesn't use oil between changes. I do mine at ~50 hours but the factory says you can go up to 100 hours. Plugs are inexpensive NGK motorcycle type so I put new ones in at each oil change as well. I burn premium auto gas so I save at least a buck a gallon over 100LL. As to fuel economy, I average less than 4GPH. Often less than 3. A stock S-7 will pretty much get you in and out of any place most mere mortals will dare to fly. Guys like Tom have really raised the bar with some of the places he takes his.
I can do all my own work and the annuals are inexpensive. No STC's or certified parts.
I don't have to sit in the back to fly it and I can open both doors in flight if I choose. Having 2 doors is a big plus if you end up putting it on floats some day.
Are flaps important? Well... try operating in and out of a short soft strip with obstacles at both ends at MTOW and a high D.A.
Bottom line is that the best plane is the one you own. Find one, fly it whenever you can and add your 2 cents to the next "which plane" thread.

Here is my opinion and you can take it for what you are having to pay for it...
I own both or close to it anyway. My Champ isn't a 7GCBC but it is close enough for a fair comparison. It is heavily modded and has an O-235. The RANS S-7 is an older short tail.

Operating costs between the two are nearly identical. The Champ is a bit higher if I run it full throttle but that is rare. I normally fly it at 2,000-2,200 Rpm and it sips fuel. Old Lycoming technology and the engines just purrs like the proverbial kitten. God dependable old plane that I wouldn't be scared to fly across the country...if I had to. Sad to say I have sold (accepted a deposit) the Champ and I am very sad seeing it go but I just don't get to fly it as much as I would like.

The S-7 is to me, my toy. The one I hop in and bounce around the local area with not a care as to where I am going or my final destination. I will eventually fly it on a longer cross country but haven't gotten to that point yet.

As to flying experience....the Champ is a much more stable flyer that handles the wind/turbulence much better than the S-7. I will honestly say flying in the S-7 in winds much over 15 kts. or in turbulence takes ALL the fun out of flying it. Whereas the Champ takes the bumps better.
I have flown the S-7 in some nasty winds. Last summer flying back from a friends I had a ground speed of 60 mph (it cruises at 100+) and when I got to my strip I had over 25 mph crosswind. I ended up landing it via flying it to the ground at 60 mph. Its still in one piece.
I think you would be happy with either one of your choices just realize the flying experience will be different.

There are a couple of S-7's for sale on the Ransclan site.

For 50K you could get a pretty darn nice (but older) Maule. The nice thing about a Maule (aside from incredible performance) is the maintenance. A good example from last week was that my Push To Talk button failed - My mechanics cost for the part was just under 2 bucks. He told me he replaced one in a cessna a while back and it was $130 for the part. Most everything Maule does is off the shelf.

I saw a pretty nice M4 out of the late 70's for 40'ish. You won't beat it.

Man, for that kind of cash i would pick up robs 170 off of here long before i'd get a rans or etc...or there are a few 170b's around with the 180 hp and cs prop...dont get me wrong, the rotax stuff is pretty good, but limited weight hauler and a lot of revs all the time with the rotax's...fwiw...

After flying behind Lyc's on Continentals for most of 20 years, the Rotax is like flying a turbine. Smooth and quiet. Turbines rev up pretty good too, BTW.

Get a PA-11 with an O-200 or a C-90. Good ones are around 35K-40K. You could also go with a Champ with a C-90. For 30K you can get a great one. Put 8:50 tires on these and have as much fun as you dare. Same goes for a Taylorcraft if you aren't too wide.