My brother called me this morning to ask me about gyrocopters. I guess he did this because I am the only pilot in the family.
He is looking to purchase an RAF 2000 and wanted to know my opinion. I told him I really didn't know much about them but was always intrigued by them. Think it would be a blast to fly. Anyone know anything about gryos pro or con?
I have read they aren't the safest thing in the air but really have no real world experience.
Thanks,
WW

WWhunter, Here is a link to a forum on rotary craft and a recent discussion on the topic.

http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23976

I'm not an expert personally - this is information I learned from an expert:

The RAF gyros have a very checkered past and more than one expert has called their designs into question.

There IS a very significant, well documented problem with pusher style gyros that involves the vertical displacement or difference between the CG and the thrust line. This is not old wives tales, this is something that is known and understood. Many people have lost their lives in "pitch over" problems with gyros.

RAF is one of the manufacturers that did not address this longitudinal stability issue correctly. Whether this issue has been resolved on the particular gyro you are referring to is not known.

The long-term solution that has been proven to work is the so-called "drop keel" or lowered thrust line. This is an UGLY modification from an aesthetic point of view but it solves the problem and results in a safer gyro.

The big problem is that in order to use a larger propeller (more power) the early gyro builders just moved the engine up so the prop would clear the tailboom. The thrust line got too high, and if a pilot pushed the stick forward too far or too fast the gyro would tumble tail over nose and lose control. Several people died.

This never happened on the original Bensen gyro because it was not overpowered, didn't need a huge prop, so the thrust line was not too high. As soon as they put bigger engines on, the problem started.

ONE solution was a horizontal stabilizer. This works to one degree or another and was a big improvement. THEN they finally figured out the thrust line problem and what it did during a pitch over maneuver. So they lowered the thrust line, or raised the pilot (same thing). This solved the problem from another direction.

So in today's gyro world, the lowered thrust line combined with a horizontal stabilizer give you a very safe, predictable, stable configuration. Most of the RAF gyros did not have either or both of these features. However, they can be upgraded to this configuration, some have.

The "Dominator" , "Maggi", and several other more recent designs have these features built in. You can see the compromise in looks they had to make in order to accomodate the drop keep and/or the stabilizer.

As mentioned, go visit the rotary forums and check into this issue with the experts. If you cannot find a credible expert easily, contact me via e-mail and I will put you in touch with two people whose opinions are backed up with experience and training.

Bill

That's funny. I was just looking at Gyro's to see if they might be a good, low cost, backcountry alternative. Haven't flown one before but they look like an absolute blast. They look like they're a lot more "trailerable" than a folding wing aircraft, particularly in size of trailer. Engine outs are significantly safer than a fixed wing.

Sounds like many of the major issues with them have been solved, though I wonder if the AutoRotor clubs are downplaying some of the risks a bit. One of the things that scares me the most about them is if the rotors become unloaded, in a negative G forces on the rotors, the gyro will "Stall" for lack of a better term and be unrecoverable. Not seeing a way to attach a BRS to one either without the rotor just tangling/cutting the lines. Maybe on the tail but that can get whacked off by the rotor in a bad situation.

Training an absolute must, okay that's a "no duh" statement. Transition training from fixed to Gyro sounds pretty reasonable though.

One thing I read is that Gyro's can be flown slow but the other thing I read is that one should keep the speed up to prevent the rotors from being unloaded.

What about wind shear? I hear they work well in windy conditions but also that would be a time more likely to encounter shear.
Can strong turbulance cause a rotor unloading situation?

As far as a backcountry bird. Didn't find any references to anyone doing so. Seems like hanging a baggage compartment on one might screw up the delicate balance, thrust line, and other physics in ways I don't currently understand.

Doesn't sound like they do well on rough surfaces. Hard on the rotors.

So yeah, any actual Autorotor heads out there that want to fill us in on the ins-outs pros-cons would be great. Anybody using one for backcountry use?

Craig

I hear they're a good option for post-apocalyptic Australia:

WWhunter wrote:My brother called me this morning to ask me about gyrocopters. I guess he did this because I am the only pilot in the family.
He is looking to purchase an RAF 2000 and wanted to know my opinion. I told him I really didn't know much about them but was always intrigued by them. Think it would be a blast to fly. Anyone know anything about gryos pro or con?
I have read they aren't the safest thing in the air but really have no real world experience.
Thanks,
WW

i have about 4 hrs total with an instructor in a parsons tandum, and a side by side sparrow hawk. i'll just give you my opinion based on my experience. i feel it's just as safe as our airplanes we fly, you have to know your limitations and the machines capabilities. i would rather have an engine out in a gyro than an airplane. they are extremely maneuverable, great for flying over the tree tops. some manufacturers have better machines than others. The dominator and Sport Coptor are great machines. Get on the rotary forum and do your homework. I also have a name of someone who's been fly ing gyro's for 30 yrs, let me know if you want his number. david

That particular Australian unit was kind of "snakey".

LMAO!!! It is ironic that I thought of that movie (Mad Max) when I first posted this thread.
Thanks everyone for the replies. I think I have talked him out of getting a gyro. Been trying to steer him towards an LSA. A trike or something like a JUST or RANS S-7.
Keith

WWhunter wrote:LMAO!!! It is ironic that I thought of that movie (Mad Max) when I first posted this thread.
Thanks everyone for the replies. I think I have talked him out of getting a gyro. Been trying to steer him towards an LSA. A trike or something like a JUST or RANS S-7.
Keith

Keith, there is nothing wrong with a trike. I flew a airborne classic, 582 bluehead, had about 650hrs, never did anything but light maintenance and change coolant. great machine. good luck, keep flying!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The safest and best looking gyro (in my opinion) is the Littlewing. Awesome machine!! None of the pushover problems, and it looks like a gyro should! Pitcairn and Cierva weren't wrong! www.littlewingautogyro.com
JH

panzl7 wrote:

WWhunter wrote:LMAO!!! It is ironic that I thought of that movie (Mad Max) when I first posted this thread.
Thanks everyone for the replies. I think I have talked him out of getting a gyro. Been trying to steer him towards an LSA. A trike or something like a JUST or RANS S-7.
Keith

Keith, there is nothing wrong with a trike. I flew a airborne classic, 582 bluehead, had about 650hrs, never did anything but light maintenance and change coolant. great machine. good luck, keep flying!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Definitely. Trikes are cool, and if you don't have the option to hangar, the wing breaks down easily for trailering.

I got my start in ultralights, but years later I took my first ride in a trike and it was like flying a motorcycle. Here's an interesting discussion on their flight/approach characteristics.

I apologize for the suggestion drift. This is the LSA version of "just buy a Maule."

hardtailjohn wrote:The safest and best looking gyro (in my opinion) is the Littlewing. Awesome machine!! None of the pushover problems, and it looks like a gyro should! Pitcairn and Cierva weren't wrong! http://www.littlewingautogyro.com
JH

Still thinking about building one of the 2 seat version. Check these out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GohV8Okqi0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHsyVab3LoM

hardtailjohn,

That is the one I would build if I were to ever build one. I really like the looks of it with the Rotec radial engine. I came to the same conclusion....the type with an airplane type fuselage is the safest gyro a guy can have. I love the old Pitcairns...if only I could afford one.

As for a trike, I think that is what he should get. Only problem I see is they can cost as much or more than a decent certified plane.

WW

I got one for sale cheap its a two seater selling it for a old friend never flew it
HOLLMAN GYROPLANE • $3,900 • FOR SALE • Complete Hollman Gyroplane 2 seater, controls in , fuse built, blades with kit never flown-no engine ,he is a machinest and it is well built

Gerry
[email protected]
8075973490

WWhunter wrote:My brother called me this morning to ask me about gyrocopters. I guess he did this because I am the only pilot in the family.
He is looking to purchase an RAF 2000 and wanted to know my opinion. I told him I really didn't know much about them but was always intrigued by them. Think it would be a blast to fly. Anyone know anything about gryos pro or con?
I have read they aren't the safest thing in the air but really have no real world experience.
Thanks,
WW

Have 9500+ hours in Helicopters and 3-4hrs. in a McCulloch J-2--- Gyrocopter is underpowered beast that is not recommended unless your highly experienced .
There's a few experimental manufactures that might work at lower altitudes.
Wouldn't want to go in mountains or across the water. Better bet I'd invest my
money in a old Hiller 12E or Bell 47.

I'm not sure this is one but if it is this guy FLYS one!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwHt6LyV ... r_embedded

Man how much have we have progressed in 8 years since this thread was first posted. I've been flying fixed wing and helicopters for a few decades and now that I'm retired would love to own a helicopter again. I've owned many airplanes and used to own a Robinson Mariner (full floats always inflated) but they're too expensive not only to purchase but to maintain. Also the operating costs are high. Just in fuel costs for example, a small helicopter is always flying at full throttle constantly guzzling between 15 and 19 gallons per hour and you change altitude by changing the pitch on the rotor blades. A gyro take off at 5 gallons per hour then you throttle back to about 3 gallons per hour in cruise and to descent you go to idle so it's about 1/2 gallon per hour descending.

I remember the first time I saw a gyroplane, back then I owned 3 airplanes (Citabria 7ECA, Cherokee6 (260hp), Seneca I) and thought that guy was nuts. Well come to think about it he probably was a little since gyroplanes have evolved so much regarding safety and he used to fly them when they were not so evolved.

The post made by GroundLooper had some good information and some not so good. I recently retired and was also looking for something economical to fly aside from my T41a (Cessna 172H) which actually gets boring if I'm just flying point A to point B. Well my medical issues helped me decide to look at modern gyros (LSA & driver's license capable) and went for a flight.

The first flight in the gyro was just like when I first flew in a helicopter, get me on the ground quick !!! Who would have thought a few years later I would get another helicopter flight and love it so much I sold every plane I owned, added all my ratings in helicopters up to CFI-I and ATP and went out and bought one. After that I even got enough experience to make a living flying helicopters domestically and internationally for the next 10 years.

So now, like I do with everything I get into, I went full in and after a while added the gyroplane and finally the gyro CFI to my list of certificates. I love it so much that I bought a modern gyroplane. The AutoGyro MTO Sport is a kit based Experimental AB here in the USA but it's actually a Certified Aircraft in Germany and in the UK, so it's very safe.

Last thing I wanted to add was to help with some of the things that GroundLooper had doubts about so let's tackle them now :

"One of the things that scares me the most about them is if the rotors become unloaded, in a negative G forces on the rotors, the gyro will "Stall" for lack of a better term and be unrecoverable."

"One thing I read is that Gyro's can be flown slow but the other thing I read is that one should keep the speed up to prevent the rotors from being unloaded."


Very unlikely in a modern gyro. Can it be done? Of course but it's like asking if flying straight and level in an airplane can you stall, yes, but very unlikely unless you pull all power and try to maintain altitude BUT here's where the gyro is brilliant. It will NOT stall. As a helicopter pilot I was constantly looking at that rotor RPM during my first few lessons until I realized that it never changed. Once it's up to a speed where you're flying not matter what maneuver I threw at it the rotor RPM never changed. It's designed into the machine to stay flying.

If you're flying a gyro and decide to keep pulling power until it's completely off and try to maintain altitude the gyro will just keep flying until it then just starts descending, No pitchover, no dropping the nose, NO STALL. I bring it to 0 airspeed and all it does is descend smoothly and a lot slower than in a helicopter autorotation where everything happens fast. At first it was very interesting and now it's kind of boring to do a 0 airpspeed descent because it's a non issue. That's why the gyro engine off is so safe, it's what you do to land every time anyway so it's normal. You arrive at the airport, pull all power and stay at 55 knots and when you're at landing height pull the nose a little bit back and you flare, touch down, and roll about 100 feet, if there's no wind. With wind you can touch down and stop in 10' or less, in fact with a strong headwind you have to watch out you don't start rolling backwards as soon as the main wheels are firmly on the ground !!

"What about wind shear? I hear they work well in windy conditions but also that would be a time more likely to encounter shear. Can strong turbulance cause a rotor unloading situation?

Like any aircraft wind shear can have unexpected results but it would have to be an incredible wind shear to unload a rotor disk so extremely unlikely too. Regarding cross winds and high bumpy turbulent wind conditions, BRING IT ON !! I flew my first 8 lessons in a smaller gyro with direct 20 knot crosswinds and never even realized it until one day I saw a 172 trying to land and almost scraped a wing tip on the ground. We thought he was going to crash until he decided to go to another runway. Gyros are very forgiving when it comes to turbulence and are hardly affected by it. When it's too windy for fixed wing LSAs to be flying, the gyros are up and playing.

"As far as a backcountry bird. Didn't find any references to anyone doing so. Seems like hanging a baggage compartment on one might screw up the delicate balance, thrust line, and other physics in ways I don't currently understand. Doesn't sound like they do well on rough surfaces. Hard on the rotors.

Like every aircraft it depends on available runway length. I can land it on a dime but to take off it's like any other plane, it needs to roll to get the rotor up to a speed where it takes off but it also depends, just like on an airplane, on how much fuel I have on board, am I alone or with a passenger, etc.

Regarding tough on the rotors, not really because once that rotor is above 200 RPMs the blades are as tough as any airplane's wing. Baggage space isn't an issue if you choose a gyro with baggage compartments like the TAG Titanium from Australia where they use gyros for cattle herding! Can't get more outback than in The Outback Down Under where they have a model with bigger tires and no wheel pants, what a new concept, lol !

Everything I'm talking about here including 0 airspeed descents and crosswind and very windy day flying, should be experienced by everyone in a gyro. Go up with a good pilot or a CFI and have them let you do it. It will be an eye opener for sure. PLEASE don't go with a hot dogger or with an inexperienced CFI or pilot on your first flights, it'll sour you forever. As an example when I started flying the gyro I had an irrational fear of heights, after all what if I fall out of this flying lawn chair right? It's irrational because at 500' if I fell out (which can't happen thanks to gravity and to 4 point harness seatbelts) I would die just as if I fell out at 2,000' so it was irrational but it was MY fear. Well even after I told this CFI about it he still determined that we HAD to climb to 2000' to demonstrate a 0 airspeed descent. Not true because we do it every day when we're over 500' and we come to land. So PLEASE don't fly with a new CFI or a pilot who doesn't even trust himself or his machine.

I fly mine on my grass runway and have tons of fun. https://www.facebook.com/VacaMooAirport ... 055900111/

By the way, I'm selling my T41a with big wheels so after you've seen all of the gyro videos click on PHOTOS and then on SEE ALL so you see the 4 albums of the T41a Restoration. I'll even throw in the ADS-B OUT for anyone who buys it cash.