Apparently congress just passed a law that makes it mandatory for the right seater to have an ATP. No more 500 hour wonders straight out of school. My buddy is a training captain for American Eagle and was telling me that he would spend more time teaching them how to fly instruments instead of how to transition to the jet. I believe this is a big step forward for commuter safety. The airlines depended on the fact that an experienced captain could fly the aircraft by themselves (and wouldn't be incapacitated) until the right seaters could learn the aircraft. The argument is that the military puts pilots with way less hours in advanced aircraft doesn't hold, the military weeds out candidates throughout the training process, where as UND and other schools will keep bad students as long as they have money to be there. These guys were sitting in the right seat without having made true weather, go/no-go decisions on their own, they have had instructors, or senior pilots to look over their shoulders always.

I figure this will get a good conversations going.

Now would be a good time to buy stock in Parker pens!!!! The logbook padders will be writing up a storm.

It was always fun (not) to watch those guys hit the real world of shit weather flying.

Gump

Yeah Congress passing a law will make it all safer.....NOT.
How much more "weather experience" will come from instructing another 1000 hours in a 172?
How many GA pilots do you know who have lot's of ice experience in Turbine and Jet twins?
How do you afford to get that experience without a Silver Spoon sticking out of your butt?
Hope you are going to be happy with higher ticket prices, less flights and less crews and even worse customer satisfaction.

Never forget the really big crashes are always flown by really high time ATP's.

As a former Regional Airline pilot I think I have an idea of how the system really works. I would rather be flown by some sharp twenty something in an RJ over some old drunk in a wide body.
The RJ FO knows, they don't know shit.

Just saying'

While I dont totally agree with 670x reaction....

Your condescending post shows your ignorance to the realties faced by the regional industry and the professionals who work in it.

My buddy is a training captain for American Eagle and was telling me that he would spend more time teaching them how to fly instruments instead of how to transition to the jet.

I bet if you really push your buddy for answers he would admit that thats not the norm. If they are just out of school then most of them have recently completed the instrument rating and all the studying and flying that goes with it. AKA they are fresh. If its the EMB-145 it has its own idiocrocys to learn about. Most of the navigation is done using RNAV/FMS. something that you wouldn't be exposed to until you fly that type of aircraft.

I believe this is a big step forward for commuter safety.

I am not convinced. There was so much good that could have been done after the colgan crash. Fatigue, pay, work rules, training... Instead they focused on something that was not the cause. 1500 hours watching your student make left turns flexes different muscles then are used for part 121 flying.
No amount of time in light aircraft can prepare you to operate a demanding type*.
(transport category aircraft, high performance fighter, ext)

The airlines depended on the fact that an experienced captain could fly the aircraft by themselves (and wouldn't be incapacitated) until the right seaters could learn the aircraft.

No... they are not... A right seater still has to pass an extensive checkride complete with engine failures at V-1. Here are the requirements if you want to review http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_121-appF.html

The argument is that the military puts pilots with way less hours in advanced aircraft doesn't hold, the military weeds out candidates throughout the training process, where as UND and other schools will keep bad students as long as they have money to be there.

This point I actually agree with. Schools and Airlines are financially motivated to keep pilots once they have invested money in them. This is something that should have been addressed.

These guys were sitting in the right seat without having made true weather, go/no-go decisions on their own, they have had instructors, or senior pilots to look over their shoulders always.

Yes. And there first flight out they wont make true weather decisions because they are not signing the release. They have at least a few years to watch all the good and bad decisions be made .day-in and day-out. before they upgrade. Thats how the system has always been set-up. The weather decisions you make in a light aircraft are different then a transport category aircraft

Are hours bad? no. There is no replacement for experience. Are all young -low time pilots know-nothings? no.

Duds are in the system but it isnt always the low timers... The deadliest crash in history was caused by a very experienced captain. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Veld ... van_Zanten

The Colgan captian that killed 50 was 47yo and had 3300 hours. . Its all about the type of experience\maturity\ability not necessarily age.

Expose the right guy to the right experiences and trainingand he could end up being a quality product at a very young age(for airline pilots relatively speaking)

This system of low pay and indentured servitude is a product of the industries own doing. FYI I know a few very experienced pilots that are looking for work right now. Highly skilled with outstanding resumes.

Will they ever work for a regional?
> no

Why?
> pay, starting pay is 23$ an hour and FAA mandated max is 1000 FLIGHT hours per year(meaning well over 3000 hours actually at work away from your family)

The public give a flying F*** whos up front?
>not as long as the ticket is at the top of "sort by cheapest" on expedia.

Makes that 1400 hours a year at $70 an hour flying a C207 full of soda pop and chips, just me 'n Hoser the Wonder Dog, seem like not too bad a deal.

Gump

GumpAir wrote:Makes that 1400 hours a year at $70 an hour flying a C207 full of soda pop and chips, just me 'n Hoser the Wonder Dog, seem like not too bad a deal.

Gump

Ha Ha I hear ya, One furlough was enough for me to learn. That's why I used to fly pipelines. Same money as a 2nd year RJ pilot and it's just me in my shorts and sandals...Razor? what's a Razor?

This is'nt going to help saftey its going to make it worse!
Fo gets hired with less than 500 hrs, he or she will have over a thousand hrs to learn the job and aircraft, before they can upgrade. Now take that same Fo just out of a 172 with a fresh ATP
stick them in the right seat.,now when things move in the airline bizz it moves. so now you have someone that gets hired right seat couple of months later upgrades to Capt. Hasent realy learned the aircraft or the job and very limited experiance to fall back on to make comand decitions.
The Capt in the Colgan crash had 3300 hrs, now imagine he has 1900 hrs. Scary!!!!
Its another nee jerk reaction from washington that does the opposite that they claim it does.
Now its up to the insurance co. to tell the airlines how much time the Fo has in the aircraft before he or she can upgrade......OH SH!%T the gov. taken that over too.

I may not know jack about much. But that's why I'm asking here.

Don't these new pilots fresh out of a Embry Riddle 172 jump into a RJ flight sim for x amount of hours before they jump into the real cockpit?? I believe Trevdog is going through this type of training (RJ flight sim) right now.

I must agree, the pay scale is way out of whack between a new RJ pilot and a heavy iron pilot!! But, just like most any other jobs, you gota start some where and work your way up the ladder. That's what I did. I remember when my first trucking job was paying $12.00 and hour. I was supper excited about that back then. Now I'm close to $30.00 an hour. Not bad once you figure in overtime and double time.

58Skylane wrote:I may not know jack about much. But that's why I'm asking here.

Don't these new pilots fresh out of a Embry Riddle 172 jump into a RJ flight sim for x amount of hours before they jump into the real cockpit?? I believe Trevdog is going through this type of training (RJ flight sim) right now.

I must agree, the pay scale is way out of whack between a new RJ pilot and a heavy iron pilot!! But, just like most any other jobs, you gota start some where and work your way up the ladder. That's what I did. I remember when my first trucking job was paying $12.00 and hour. I was supper excited about that back then. Now I'm close to $30.00 an hour. Not bad once you figure in overtime and double time.

How's this for out of whack.
I spent 30K on ratings ...
First airline job 15.60 per flight hour.
75 hours a month min scheduled for a total of...14,000 a YEAR.
I made more as a flight instructor, only a single kid living at home could make it on that wage. My wife worked multiple jobs and I delivered pizza when I was home, living the dream as an airline pilot.

Now when you upgraded at about a year you got a whopping 25.00 an hour for a total of 22,500 a year.

I guess I should be happy about this. How many pilots are going to enter in to training for this kind of wage now? Maybe this will force a shortage and drive my potential earnings up?

initial SIC type is 8-10 sims at 4 hours a piece. thats 30-40 hours of being lit on fire. engines blowing up. single engine missed approaches. v-1 cuts .

most guys with really low time (<500 hours) have had training before. Either through a collegiate aviation program(fixed baised ftd) or an internship that rewarded them with sim time.

I have moved on to greener pastures but I made less then my student loan payments my first year. Had to sell my vintage car I had built up over 4 years to survive.

And 30K is really not much on ratings. Them students going through Embry Riddle are paying about that much (if not, more) per year for 4 years . I was shocked when I heard that!!

My first flight instructor was up to 100K in debt from his schooling and ratings. He's just now starting out in the corporate flying biz this last year. Last I heard, he's flying a Learjet. Hopefully he continues up the ladder to the Gulfstreams and make some real money (if there is any to be made)

The fundamental problem with pilots is they all love flying. They love it to death. They'll fly for free. They just want to fly. You've all heard of supply and demand. There are simply too many of you that would fly for cheap because you love to fly. Corporations will quickly exploit anything they they can get cheaply.

The same situation exists in music. Making music is inherently satisfying, much like flying, so there are zillions of good musicians. Only a handful make it to super star, and the rest need a day job.

tom

Heck, not too many years ago, there was a commuter flying Beech 1900's that would CHARGE their FO's for flying right seat. How else could you build multi engine turbine time?

Something has to change in the basic paradigm, or there simply will be no experienced pilots to upgrade in a few years.

Of course, the Airbus was designed to fly itself......

MTV

58Skylane wrote:And 30K is really not much on ratings. Them students going through Embry Riddle are paying about that much (if not, more) per year for 4 years . I was shocked when I heard that!!

My first flight instructor was up to 100K in debt from his schooling and ratings. He's just now starting out in the corporate flying biz this last year. Last I heard, he's flying a Learjet. Hopefully he continues up the ladder to the Gulfstreams and make some real money (if there is any to be made)

You are correct. My kid expressed an interest in becoming an airline pilot 4-5 years ago when he was a freshman and sophomore in high school. I put the full court press on him and talked him out of it. I told him the airline industry sucks and will continue to suck for the foreseeable future. He does go to Riddle in Daytona Beach but will be coming out of there with an engineering degree. It costs well over $100K for a Riddle grad to graduate with all his flight ratings, UND is the same. And then make $20K a year? That's nuts. My kid learned to fly last summer in a 57 182 here at home. This summer is the tail dragger sign off.

Bonanza Man wrote:

58Skylane wrote:And 30K is really not much on ratings. Them students going through Embry Riddle are paying about that much (if not, more) per year for 4 years . I was shocked when I heard that!!

My first flight instructor was up to 100K in debt from his schooling and ratings. He's just now starting out in the corporate flying biz this last year. Last I heard, he's flying a Learjet. Hopefully he continues up the ladder to the Gulfstreams and make some real money (if there is any to be made)

You are correct. My kid expressed an interest in becoming an airline pilot 4-5 years ago when he was a freshman and sophomore in high school. I put the full court press on him and talked him out of it. I told him the airline industry sucks and will continue to suck for the foreseeable future. He does go to Riddle in Daytona Beach but will be coming out of there with an engineering degree. It costs well over $100K for a Riddle grad to graduate with all his flight ratings, UND is the same. And then make $20K a year? That's nuts. My kid learned to fly last summer in a 57 182 here at home. This summer is the tail dragger sign off.

Off topic a little bit......Have you been to the campus in Daytona? Very impressive! What I was most impressed with (besides having their own Starbucks and Chic fil A), was their library! I've never seen so many aviation related books and material any where! The library is 2-3 story's tall. Open to the public, too.

Most of the info I got on Riddle was from the nice young lady that owns the pilot supply store across the road (International Spdwy) next to the Outback Steakhouse.

58Skylane wrote:Off topic a little bit......Have you been to the campus in Daytona? Very impressive! What I was most impressed with (besides having their own Starbucks and Chic fil A), was their library! I've never seen so many aviation related books and material any where! The library is 2-3 story's tall. Open to the public, too.

Most of the info I got on Riddle was from the nice young lady that owns the pilot supply store across the road (International Spdwy) next to the Outback Steakhouse.

Yes, we went there when we dropped him off in Aug 08. A tropical storm passed right thru Daytona which canceled orientation. I never thought much of ERAU until my kid expressed an interest in there and the Naval Academy. It was the rep from the Naval Academy who told us ERAU's engineering program was the equal to the Navy. Like most people I thought ERAU was just a pilot mill.

An extra 1000 hours won't make a bad pilot good but it will give the other 50% time to experience the building blocks, scare themselves, and gain some valuable insights the 500 hour FO never got.
Early on I had the privilege of flying with a retired USAF pilot who was warned, on his 4th attempt, that he would lose his instrument ticket if he flew that bad again the next time he showed up for his Citation type rating. I have flown with a few really sharp pilots, picked their brains and hopefully had some of their insight stick. Later I got to give several new hires some bounce and gos in their first part 91 jet job. No simulator, just "take them around the pattern three times, there is a trip tomorrow." Man is that fun, there is nothing like flying a Westwind or Learjet effectively solo for the next 3 months.

If I came off as condescending in the original post (as accused) I certainly didn't mean to. My main point is that someone getting hired with 500 hours TT and 50 Multi into the right seat of a RJ or even a dash-8 is not safe. They have not had to make decisions, they have not scared themselves and learned from it. 1000 hours of instructing may not seem like valuable time, however, I will point out that instructors are making decisions without someone looking over the shoulders and taking responsibility for another human being. In a 141 school, pretty much every flight you make is supervised, moving someone like that into the right seat where they are again supervised and know that an experienced person will correct them does not make a decision maker. I simply believe that more experience is better, instructing, being a freight dog, flying skydivers, towing banners gives the folks a chance to be an independent thinker. As to the assertion that wide body captains make worse decisions than a 500 hour wonder... I don't agree. And while major airline crashes cause more deaths at once incident, the most recent stats from 2001 to 2008 show regionals killing more folks in both number and per million miles flown.

We generally don't hire folks unless they have 2000 tt and 500 alaska and all we do is fly cessna 206s. The majors usually won't even look at you with less than 2000 and prior type rating (I said usually so don't tell me about some exception), FedEx, UPS, forget about it, they want experience.

I also don't think that it will cause a catastrophic raise in ticket prices, less flights and the polar ice cap to melt.

I still think it is a good idea.

Sorry for the long winded post. Its a long flight and I was pretty bored! (Dont worry, not pulling a northwest airlines, I was the relief crew!)

If I came off as condescending in the original post (as accused) I certainly didn't mean to.

Its ok. You didn't know this forum had former regional guys and its a fun and scary topic to exaggerate. Its ok though. Were used to It.

My main point is that someone getting hired with 500 hours TT and 50 Multi into the right seat of a RJ or even a dash-8 is not safe. not had to make decisions..... scared themselves ..learned from it....instructors are making decisions ....supervised, ..... make a decision maker...... independent thinker.

Unfortunately you sound like you have no frame of reference. I know your buddy told you things but everyone wants to tell a great story.

You have to understand the environment that they operate in. While you make decisions ATC spoon feeds you, the airports are all familiar,the terrain is non existent, dispatchers\maintenance\operations are a vhf call or ACARS msg away

The aircraft and environment after your training are user friendly, very forgiving and uncomplicated. . Every operation you preform is documented and laid out in a manual at your fingertips.
Very little out of the box thinking. Its not your 206.

As to the assertion that wide body captains make worse decisions than a 500 hour wonder... I don't agree. And while major airline crashes cause more deaths at once incident, the most recent stats from 2001 to 2008 show regionals killing more folks in both number and per million miles flown.

Thats a great statistic.. but I think your confusing the (regional)airlines overall safety with the change in safety of a 1500 vs 500 hour pilot assuming they both are new to 121 scheduled and transport category airplanes.
Yes, the pilots of regionals are generally new to 121. That adds a measured element of risk but, 1500h guy with 172 time still wont know crap about a totally different kind of flying.

(BTW The regionals make so many more departures(up to 7 a day) that the per million miles flown statistic is skewed. The average stage length is under 500 miles. 63% of Mega airline DELTA's flights are flown by regional partners. Its the to\landing phase that is statistically critical then another hour(500miles) in cruse.. )

I am also straining to recall a fatal accident that was caused or even operated by someone under 1500 hours in that time period.

http://www.ntsb.gov .

6/29/2004 Beech 1900D Air midwest. Cause: FAA, Ratheon, air midwest. poor weight and balance standards and miss rigged elevator. Captian: 2700 hours FO: 1096

1/24/2006 BAE Jetstream 32 CORPORATE AIRLINES Cause: descended below glide-slope\both went visual too early. Captian: 4200 hours FO: 2800

12/19/2005 Grumman G-73T Chalks Ocean Airways Cause: wing fell off. Captian 2800 hours FO 1,420

8/27/2006 . CRJ-100 COMAIR INC Cause: Pilots took off on the wrong runway. Captian: 4700 hours FO:3500

All those pilots had more then 1500 and fucked up or were fucked before they took-off.

We generally don't hire folks unless they have 2000 tt and 500 alaska and all we do is fly cessna 206s. The majors usually won't even look at you with less than 2000 and prior type rating (I said usually so don't tell me about some exception), FedEx, UPS, forget about it, they want experience.

Those majors also don't look at Pilots new to 121. They generally don't care about how much 172 time you had. Its the 121 turbojet that matters because its such a huge change. And since regionals are generally your first turbojet/121 experience, this law would make that change at 1500 not 500.

Think of your best pilot you have that has no 121/jet experience. Think of throwing him in a 121 program for a glass cockpit jet. The wiz-bang kid who just finished 4 years of school learning about systems aerodynamics,121 rules, has glass cockpit, already completed training hours in fixed biased FTD or simulator. I would say thats a fair fight considering your mostly a systems operator on a modern aircraft.

Alaska is statistically the deadliest place to fly. http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/aviation/
No wonder you want someone who is familiar with that environment. I have very little ak time but i think if you hired me with 200 hours to fly for you... no doubt i would have killed myself by now. But regional flying isn't single pilot alaska flying. I am sure you flying requires intimate local know-how accumulated over hours and hours of scaring the shit outa yourself. Knowing that if the weather is like XXXX here then you cant make it XXX. This is not what 121 is about. Now picture that 200 hour kid stuck next to your experienced pilots for years, watching how its done day-after-day. Your senior pilots discussing the decisions they are making, passing on knowledge, allowing the low timer to make decisions but never get over his head. Thats how 121 is supposed to work.

Hours are great, hours are good. Hours dont tell the whole story.

I also don't think that it will cause a catastrophic raise in ticket prices, less flights and the polar ice cap to melt.I still think it is a good idea.

I don't think it will change anything. and thats why i have a problem with it. So much good could have been done on something that would make a measurable change in safety.

Man, is this BCP or flight info? Anyway...

As someone with a "frame of reference" (cooperate, regionals for 7 years, now at a major), Savannah Tom and Porterjet make some good points (especially about pilots being our own worst enemies). While I think that the 1500 hours is somewhat arbitrary, some sort of minimum needed to be set. 250 hour wonder kids have no business being in a high performance jet. Yes, they passed the training and the check ride, but let's be serious. You can teach a monkey to push the right buttons, especially when you know that 99% of approaches in the sim are going to end up in a missed approach. Why do you think you speed hours and hours in front of a paper tiger (card board mock up of the cockpit) rehearsing it. Especially when you have the gouge and you know when x is going to happen or the order that the events will occur.

The reality, though, is that when the crap hits the fan, you're low on fuel in the middle of the night with bad weather and you end up going missed, it quickly becomes a single pilot operation because your 250 hour wonder FO looks like this and all that rehearsing in front of the paper tiger is lost in his deer in the headlights expression because this is the first actual approach he has seen. I'm sorry but a high performance jet with 50+ people on board isn't the place for him to be cutting his teeth. I'm not sure where Cheerios was in a former life, but dispatchers weren't always easy to get a hold of (not all have ACARS even today), no terrain? come out and do an ILS down to minimums to Jackson Hole, Missoula, Bozeman, etc., "all airports are familiar"? yeah, I'm sure that is what the Comair guys at Lexington were thinking too...until they ran out of runway. My point being, while yes it is more of a "box" to work in, not all do work in it and there are still plenty of gotchas. While the CA will bare the bulk of the load for paperwork, procedures, managing automation, etc., it is obviously better when you've got someone next to you that has some actual experience and can tell when something isn't looking right.

There has been a lot of talk about training in a C172 up until a person gets hired at the airlines. Here is an idea, how about going out and gaining other experience beyond instructing. Porterjet named several good options. I think part of the problem is that there for a while it was the norm to get out of college and go straight to a nice, shiny new jet and now those that won't be able to do it are whining. Go get some experience beyond instruction to make yourself marketable. Experience that will help prepare you for your next step up in aviation, whatever that may be.

BM, good move on steering your kid away. Don't get my wrong, I will encourage anyone to learn to fly. But as soon as the conversation turns to doing it for a living, I have a harder time with that. If, after they have a dose of reality of what it entails and what it is like, they still want to do it, then I'll be as supportive as I can. But they have to have the rose colored glasses removed first and realize what exactly they are pursuing.

I agree, pay at regionals is bad and lots of things need to change. But I agree with Tom. So long as pilots are willing to be exploited, things won't change.