Does anyone know why the BC320 starter does not fit the O300D?

From the O300 overhaul manual:

"The 0-300-C engine is identical to the 0-300-A except for ARP 502 Type I
flanged propeller shaft and Slick Electro Inc., Magnetos. Information regarding
maintenance, overhaul or adjustment of these magnetos may be obtained from
Slick Magneto Inc. , Rockford, Illinois. All 0-300-C engines subsequent to serial
No. 21001 are so equipped that a right angle starter drive can be used if desired"

"The 0-300-D engine is identical to the 0-300-C except that the starter is
mounted on an adapter which provides a right angle drive."

I have asked B&C directly and they have been happy to answer my questions but mostly with "yes" or "no." Great company and understandably they can't spend a great deal of time investigating technical details to maybe sell one item.

whee wrote:Does anyone know why the BC320 starter does not fit the O300D?
....."The 0-300-D engine is identical to the 0-300-C except that the starter is
mounted on an adapter which provides a right angle drive." .....

You've answered your own question.
Per B&C, their BC320 starter fits the 4 banger continentals as well as the O300A, B, & C-- in other words, the non-right-angle starter engines, most of which originally came with a pull-starter.

http://www.bandc.aero/continentalstarte ... built.aspx

You would need a starter designed for the IO-360 & 470/520 series engines, which B&C apparently doesn't offer. Skytech does, as well as Hartzell etc etc.

Maybe the right-angle adapter on your IO360 could be removed & the BC320 starter installed in it's place--
maybe, but I kinda doubt it. Otherwise I think B&C would probably market it that way.

I think rather than answering my own question I muddied the water. Per B&C the BC320 fits the O300C which according to the overhaul manual is "identical" to the O300D except for the starter adapter. So if you remove the adapter from the D why won't the BC320 fit?

The IO360 uses the same adapter as the O300D. B&C hasn't looked at the IO360 at all because they don't see a market there.

whee wrote:I think rather than answering my own question I muddied the water. Per B&C the BC320 fits the O300C which according to the overhaul manual is "identical" to the O300D except for the starter adapter. So if you remove the adapter from the D why won't the BC320 fit?

The IO360 uses the same adapter as the O300D. B&C hasn't looked at the IO360 at all because they don't see a market there.

So buy it and try it.
Or just unbolt the starter adapter, and compare it to the business end of the BC320 starter (if you can find one), or that of a pull start starter. There should be lots of those shelved in people's hangars.

When I checked the Niagra website, their Continental starter adapter bolt pattern looks different to me than the O300A starter pad's. But see for yourself:

http://www.niagaraairparts.com/

Asked about buying and trying; can't return it and I'm unwilling to loose $700 or even the couple hundred I'd loose after selling a unused but not new unit. Haven't been able to find a BC320 starter locally. Finding a pull starter assembly locally might be possible.

Sure seems like someone would know exactly why it won't fit a O300D though. Or maybe it does but know one has ever bothered to check.

whee wrote:I think rather than answering my own question I muddied the water. Per B&C the BC320 fits the O300C which according to the overhaul manual is "identical" to the O300D except for the starter adapter. So if you remove the adapter from the D why won't the BC320 fit?

The IO360 uses the same adapter as the O300D. B&C hasn't looked at the IO360 at all because they don't see a market there.

You can't remove the starter adapter without changing the whole rear case as far as I know. On the D the starter is 90* and on the a, b, and c, they are all straight. Ony the later c is equipped to accommodate the angled drive from what I could tell.

There seem to be plenty of choices in starters specifically made for that angle drive adapter.
Just read one of the "kicked back & broke the starter adapter" threads.
Or find a post on the same subject on a propeller thread.
FWIW I have an OEM "Energizer" starter on my 470K & it works fine.
It might be kinda heavy compared to some but I have yet to see a bad pirep on them.

A1Skinner wrote:You can't remove the starter adapter without changing the whole rear case as far as I know. On the D the starter is 90* and on the a, b, and c, they are all straight. Ony the later c is equipped to accommodate the angled drive from what I could tell.

I remember your thread asking about that a few months ago. But still, why? What's the actual difference? The CMI Illustrated parts manual uses the same picture for the O300C and the O300D, all the miscellaneous parts for the accessory cover are the same part number, bu the actual accessory covers have a different part number. I'm familiar with the the difference between the starter adapters between the two engine models but opening in the accessory cover looks the same and so does the mounting studs. Wish I had access to the actual covers so I could measure them.

hotrod180 wrote:There seem to be plenty of choices in starters specifically made for that angle drive adapter.
Just read one of the "kicked back & broke the starter adapter" threads.
Or find a post on the same subject on a propeller thread.
FWIW I have an OEM "Energizer" starter on my 470K & it works fine.
It might be kinda heavy compared to some but I have yet to see a bad pirep on them.

I know your trying to be helpful but that isn't at all what I'm asking. I'm well aware of all the starter options available for the angled starter adapter. The OEM Energizer starter is the one I'd pick if I have to go that route.

whee wrote:

A1Skinner wrote:You can't remove the starter adapter without changing the whole rear case as far as I know. On the D the starter is 90* and on the a, b, and c, they are all straight. Ony the later c is equipped to accommodate the angled drive from what I could tell.

I remember your thread asking about that a few months ago. But still, why? What's the actual difference? The CMI Illustrated parts manual uses the same picture for the O300C and the O300D, all the miscellaneous parts for the accessory cover are the same part number, bu the actual accessory covers have a different part number. I'm familiar with the the difference between the starter adapters between the two engine models but opening in the accessory cover looks the same and so does the mounting studs. Wish I had access to the actual covers so I could measure them.

hotrod180 wrote:There seem to be plenty of choices in starters specifically made for that angle drive adapter.
Just read one of the "kicked back & broke the starter adapter" threads.
Or find a post on the same subject on a propeller thread.
FWIW I have an OEM "Energizer" starter on my 470K & it works fine.
It might be kinda heavy compared to some but I have yet to see a bad pirep on them.

I know your trying to be helpful but that isn't at all what I'm asking. I'm well aware of all the starter options available for the angled starter adapter. The OEM Energizer starter is the one I'd pick if I have to go that route.

I thought the angle was built right into the case. I honestly couldn't tell you the exact difference. I've never seen them in person either, just was tole that I couldn't switch them from one to another.
Sorry I can't help more Jon.

So I'm back to chasing down the answer to this question so the assembly of my engine can begin. Here is what I have found. The O300C, O300D and IO360 all use the same cluster gear (630690). (EDIT: This is incorrect, O300C uses a different cluster gear, 656081, of a larger diameter which is why the B&C starter won't fit) The O300C and D used the same crankcase. They each use a different pn accessory case; 641799, 641800 and 641801. The O300D and the IO360 use the same right angle starter adapter. Also known is that all three engines use the same alternator.

The O300C has a pin that gets installed when the case halfs are put together that the starter pinion rides ON. The O300D and IO360 have a bushing that the starter adapter pinion rides IN. When installing the B&C stater on the O300C the pin gets cut off. Some engines (those with key start rather than pull start) have a needle bearing instead of a bushing or pin. When installing the B&C starter this needle bearing is removed and a plug is inserted into the hole where the bearing was. A similar plug would have to be installed on a IO360 or O300D because there is a oil port into that bore to lubricate the starter pinion.

My conclusions: Since the cluster gears are all the same there won't be a gear tooth pitch issue. Since the engines use the same alternator and other accessory cover components (oil pump gears, oil screen, etc) it is reasonably likely that the opening for the starting system is dimensionally the same.

I've talking things over with B&C and they agree that it is likely their starter will work. They are going to put together a non-working unit from their overhaul shop left overs and loan it to me. I'll be sure to post back what I find out. I'm hopeful that I will be able to ditch the starter adapter because in my opinion it is a weak point in the continental design.

Also worth noting; I'm confident their 30A permanent magnet alternator will work in the IO360 and I'm hoping my electric system demands will be low enough that a 30A alternator will be sufficient.

Hey Jon. That's great that you found more info. I actually have a spare accessory case from a 300-D here now that I can measure up tomorrow if it helps at all.
I agree that their little alternator is the way to go, I'm very tempted to suddenly find one on my 172...

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Just to fully close the loop:

The IO360 and O300D use a different crankshaft cluster gear than the earlier O300s. The portion of the cluster gear that engages with the starter is a larger diameter (~1") on the earlier engines. The bolt pattern for the B&C starter mount is correct for the IO360 case but the starter opening is a touch too small, ~0.125" too small in diameter. Also, the end starter adapter rides in an oiled bushing. If you wanted to remove the starter adapter you would have to plug that hole. Continental does have a plug that fits that location but it has to be install before mating the case half's.

So, the three reasons you can't use a B&C starter in a IO360 or O300D
Crank Gear
Starter opening in accessory cover
Starter Adapter oiled bushing

All three are fairly easily overcome if some experimental guy wanted to.

Side note: The alternators that fit the C-series and early O300 engins also fit the IO360. I installed a Plane Power EX14-50 in mine.

This is timely.... so I was trying to figure out why my C170 is so heavy (I'm still coming up to speed on the airplane) and it turns out it has a o-300-d installed in it. So I have the right angle adapter along with the heavy starter and vacuum pump.

I would like to remove the adapter, vacuum pump and starter and replace it with a B&C unit, and from what my IA is telling me, the 300A-300C starter bolts right up to an O-300-D where the adapter goes. Can you confirm this? I couldn't quite tell from what you wrote.

schu

Looks like this won't work now that I read through this again... bummer.... better just finish the bearhawk....

Yeah, sorry it’s poorly written. Not much time to properly write out my ideas these days.

IMO, your best option for weight loss is to remove the vacuum pump, install a skytec starter, and see if your IA will help you get a field approval for the B&C or Plane Power alternator. Probly not worth the effort though. Just finish the BH[emoji16]

I bet my IA would do that, in fact he suggested it, but I took your message to mean that a B&C starter wouldn't work in an o-300-d with the starter adapter removed.

akschu wrote:I bet my IA would do that, in fact he suggested it, but I took your message to mean that a B&C starter wouldn't work in an o-300-d with the starter adapter removed.

B&C starter will not work in the O300D. The B&C alternator will.

That's a bummer, I wish my 170 had the original engine and not this d model o-300.

Anyway, I best just get to work on the bearhawk. I have nearly everything, I just need to get it done.