Hey everyone,

Watching some awesome videos of off airfield landings and takeoffs got me thinking. I don't have any experience landing or taking off from sandbars, fields, clear cuts, etc... And having TOLD data paranoia been beaten into me by Air Force pilot training I couldn't help but wonder.

How do you guys know whether or not you can land in that distance available between the trees or takeoff without obstacles ruining your day? Does it just come from close calls and experience? How do you know you know if your plane can accelerate safely to Vrot in that type of soil?

The Air Force has told programs that you can run by adding variables like configuration, temperature, weight, length of runway, min safe IFR altitudes, climb gradients, etc... And it will spit out the numbers. Was just curious how you all do it.

Nick

Ha Ha! Easy. We talk someone else into going in there first.

Gump

GumpAir wrote:Ha Ha! Easy. We talk someone else into going in there first.

Gump

Haha thought so

I eye ball it, no better way to say it. Guesswork based on past experiences and how spunky I'm feeling that day. I never measure it or use google earth, as that would be cheating. Not the right answer maybe but that's how I decide to go into a never before landed site. I consider myself a conservative flier who has a healthy respect for the risks involved, a coward, and I almost always feel I have a good margin of error, room to screw up in and still get away with it. Once or twice in the last few years I had it down to the wire as to length needed, but still not TOO short.

The one thing I do try and avoid, since a couple of ugly incidents, is letting the need to get rid of a thermos full of coffee ASAP influence the choice of a new landing site. Once that led to an embarassing (pun intended)
encounter between me and a pickup driver in rural central Wyoming. I just could not wait any longer and once landed on the dirt road dropped trou and took care of business and was just wrapping up the paper work when he crested the hill. To my undying gratitude he quickly assimilated the situation, (didn't whip out a camera, didn't freak out over an airplane landing on the road, didn't ask if I needed any help) and putting two and two together kept his speed up and just gave me a little wave as he passed by me on the now one lane road. He was one quick thinking dude and I would have shaken his hand but I think he would have passed on that. I do wonder what he said when asked later that day "what's new?" My bad of course for not spotting his approach from the air, but I was in a hurry and that is what comes of that.

Do a search on this site. There are a couple threads on the subject.

Short version:

You MUST first learn to fly your airplanes at an airport first....touchdown where you want it EVERY time and at min forward speed. Now you know what your airplane can do consistently......t/o and landing distance.

That's one part of the task.

Second part is site evaluation. How long is it? Fly over it at 60 knots (not mph) and time how long it takes to cover the useable landing area. Sixty knots means you're covering 100 feet per second, so the math is easy....which is why I use knots. Give yourself some margin here.

Now, how rough is it? Experience is your best friend here, but low passes, as many as it takes, will give you an idea of surface texture....if it looks rough, it probably is. You're also looking for obstructions, tree branches, as well as evaluating go arounds during this process.

Once you've convinced yourself that this has promise, start putting the wheels down lightly to feel out the surface better.

Repeat till you're comfortable with the site. As you get more experience with off airport sites, the process will go much faster, but at first take your time.

Finally, remember that even the most competent and skilled off airport operators occasionally break something.

And, of course, the best procedure is to follow Gump's advice.

MTV

mtv wrote:Second part is site evaluation. How long is it? Fly over it at 60 knots (not mph) and time how long it takes to cover the useable landing area. Sixty knots means you're covering 100 feet per second, so the math is easy....which is why I use knots. Give yourself some margin here.

I like this idea, i will be trying this from now on.

I also work out in my head what i know i can handel my aircraft in on my home grass strip and add a 3rd for a safe margin to allow for variable ground surfaces ect. this counts for both ground roll and climb out. if its are more questionable surface like a clan pan that may have soft points, add a half!

Another good read, courtesy of MTV:

http://www.backcountrypilot.org/knowledge-base/pilots/143-guide-to-off-airport-landings

Find the shortest nastiest farm or ranch strips to practice on. Get used to looking at the length from the air. Then move on to easy turf like alfalfa fields and short grass with lots of room. Then slowly you will develop the confidence and experience to evaluate landing sites. Be prepared to bend some metal. There is a price to pay for having this much fun. I believe there are many here who have bent a few planes but usually only the glory is shed in public. It is hard for me to say but I have somewhere between 400-600 off airport landings. One day I was landing in an irrigated alfalfa field (key word irrigated) in which I had landed hundreds of times, the low pass revealed nothing wrong (low light early morning), nice wheeled landing on dry ground and roll out into deep water. The nose over got me a new engine and prop with the help of insurance. I still love to land of airport. My best fishing spot is 40 feet from my plane. Practice practice practice.

Here is basically a screenshot of my GPS showing two days worth of my tracks on a recent recon of a landing site. It was on a mountain top, and obviously no shortage of low approaches to verify my landing site. After all that, I was only about 95% sure of the outcome. I landed it no problem, now I use that experience for the next one.

Every once in a while I get complacent and think its "an easy spot, no problem" and I don't take a real good look...I've had a couple small (thankfully) "oh shit that could have been bad" moments that keep everything in check.

bart wrote:Here is basically a screenshot of my GPS showing two days worth of my tracks on a recent recon of a landing site. It was on a mountain top, and obviously no shortage of low approaches to verify my landing site. After all that, I was only about 95% sure of the outcome. I landed it no problem, now I use that experience for the next one.

Every once in a while I get complacent and think its "an easy spot, no problem" and I don't take a real good look...I've had a couple small (thankfully) "oh shit that could have been bad" moments that keep everything in check.

A North/South landing?

Crzyivan13 wrote:A North/South landing?

Good eye

IdahoFree - when I was young and relatively clueless, I would land anywhere with little concern of bending rules, metal, or my body.

Fast forward to today where I am 54, flying large commercial aircraft for a living, and being grossly conservative and aggressively safe.

I think this dichotomy may be sending conflicting signals through your thoughts as you train to be ultra safe and conservative in the service, and at the same time, thinking about landing on unknown and possibly questionable landing surfaces on your own time.

I am sure you have already considered this, but if you do bend metal on your own time, it may effect your flying status back on base, will be in your record forever, and possibly effect future flying jobs.

I think about it every time I fly my Maule and land at off-airport locations.

courierguy wrote: The one thing I do try and avoid, since a couple of ugly incidents, is letting the need to get rid of a thermos full of coffee ASAP influence the choice of a new landing site. Once that led to an embarassing (pun intended)
encounter between me and a pickup driver in rural central Wyoming. I just could not wait any longer and once landed on the dirt road dropped trou and took care of business and was just wrapping up the paper work when he crested the hill. To my undying gratitude he quickly assimilated the situation, (didn't whip out a camera, didn't freak out over an airplane landing on the road, didn't ask if I needed any help) and putting two and two together kept his speed up and just gave me a little wave as he passed by me on the now one lane road. He was one quick thinking dude and I would have shaken his hand but I think he would have passed on that. I do wonder what he said when asked later that day "what's new?" My bad of course for not spotting his approach from the air, but I was in a hurry and that is what comes of that.

His answer was probably, "Same shit, different day."

MTV has published the most extensive high and low recon techniques I have seen. Most airplanes can be landed shorter than the length needed to takeoff. We can go beyond the POH data for takeoff estimates by making takeoffs on long fields with various field conditions and weather conditions and using various techniques to find accurate estimates on our and our particular airplane's capabilities. The basic low ground effect takeoff has worked best for me over many years and many takeoffs in all manner of conditions. Slow power/pitch landings with full flaps, if available, work best for all off airport landings. Ground effect is free energy where it can be used to get off shorter and to slow down over water or very rough terrain prior to touchdown on workable terrain.

bart wrote:Here is basically a screenshot of my GPS showing two days worth of my tracks on a recent recon of a landing site. It was on a mountain top, and obviously no shortage of low approaches to verify my landing site. After all that, I was only about 95% sure of the outcome. I landed it no problem, now I use that experience for the next one.

Every once in a while I get complacent and think its "an easy spot, no problem" and I don't take a real good look...I've had a couple small (thankfully) "oh shit that could have been bad" moments that keep everything in check.

Bart, sent you a PM