Hi there, I've noticed I've had some issues with what I think is my battery. The 12V Odyssey Extreme battery is located in the cockpit. We've had temperatures here in the single digits for the last week or two. I heated the engine compartment for a few hours and then went out to start the plane, started up just fine. I taxied over to refuel before the flight, but after I finished refueling the starter didn't seem to want to push the prop enough to get it going. Was only turning the prop about a half-a-turn. Had to end up hand propping. I removed the battery that night and put it on a charger for a bit. Checked it with a volt meter and read 12.8. I reinserted the battery a couple of days later before my next flight and it started up just fine. I was able to have 2 more successful starts after that using the starter.

While I was in flight, I noticed that I was getting a discharge of around 7 Amps. Is this normal? I was thinking that when in flight the battery should be getting charged? The battery is new as of October and in addition, I was under the impression that the Odyssey Extreme batteries were meant for this sort of weather.

I went by the airplane today to go for a flight and the damned thing wouldn't start again, same thing.. just wanted to spin about half a rotation. I removed the battery again and brought it inside, thinking that this was possibly an issue with it being too cold. I don't have any sort of heater inside the cabin going.

I removed the battery cap and everything looked normal. Within the plane, the battery is kept within a metal container on the floor underneath the panel, it's kind of a bitch to keep unbolting the box and terminals.

So, it seems I may have two issues here. 1 being the discharge while in flight? Is there anything I can personally do about this? And 2, the battery being too cold. What options are out there for keeping a battery warm while in the confined space of this metal box?

Get a battery minder and install the pigtail ring connector on your battery, if you’re not flying have it plugged in, Alaska or Florida, it’s more noticeable in the cold, but the battery minder is worth it’s weight in gold.

NineThreeKilo wrote:Get a battery minder and install the pigtail ring connector on your battery, if you’re not flying have it plugged in, Alaska or Florida, it’s more noticeable in the cold, but the battery minder is worth it’s weight in gold.

Would this battery minder do or do you have a specific one? Do you keep this plugged in at all times when not flying? Thanks!!

I read about this on one of the topics earlier, but wasn't sure if you just keep it plugged in all the time or only when it needs charging. I figured keeping it on charge too much would be a bad thing.

If you are getting a discharge in flight then you have a charging issue, not a battery issue. As in your alternator/generator isn't charging. You need to diagnose this before worrying about a battery tender. Yes a tender is a good idea, but if you fly every few days you should not need one. I don't run one in my 206 and the Odyssey doesn't have a problem turning the big 520 over when it's -20C. (Engine preheated, but not battery). Easy first place to check is your field wire. Common that they vibrate and break.
Bottom line, fix your charging problem and the battery issue should fix itself.

A1Skinner wrote:If you are getting a discharge in flight then you have a charging issue, not a battery issue. As in your alternator/generator isn't charging. You need to diagnose this before worrying about a battery tender. Yes a tender is a good idea, but if you fly every few days you should not need one. I don't run one in my 206 and the Odyssey doesn't have a problem turning the big 520 over when it's -20C. (Engine preheated, but not battery). Easy first place to check is your field wire. Common that they vibrate and break.
Bottom line, fix your charging problem and the battery issue should fix itself.

Yikies, I'll see what I can find in this regard. May need to get someone else to take a look.

What I would do (I had alternator problems in my scout):

1. Verify alternator is the problem by verifying the discharge. Find some way to determine bus voltage with the engine running. Lots of cigarette lighter voltmeters for sale at gas stations and such. Or I just got a multimeter and clamped it onto the bus bar and the ground. Less than 13 Volts with engine running and you have an inop alternator.

2. If alternator isn’t outputting power, start by checking simple connections. Most notably the field wire where it connects to the lug on the alternator. This was my problem - loose crimp. An intermittent connection will trip the voltage regulator and it’ll kill the field. If this is the case you can reset the master and it may come back until the connection vibrates loose again. A totally broken connection and it’ll never output power.

3. There are ways to check the alternator brushes for wear and replace them. Worn brushes can make an intermittent connection and show itself the same way as the intermittent connection from #2 above.

4. It could simply be a “bad” alternator

5. Could be a bad voltage regulator.


No matter what, verify you’re discharging (and when) with a voltmeter.

If you can’t tell if your electrical system is charging the battery or not you are missing an instrument on your panel. Typically an ammeter will show a discharge if not charging though if the load is low the needle won’t deflect far and makes it hard to see. After a start you should get a good positive deflection as the battery charges. Or even a voltmeter as has already been suggested. GT-50 clock has a voltmeter, so does an MGL radio, so does any Garmin GPS connected to aircraft power, or the $15 dual USB port with a voltmeter between the ports.

Not a bad idea to wire the alternator field through a switch or CB so you can turn it off in the case of an alternator failure. Saves juice.

I’ve had the field wire at the alternator break, crimped a new terminal and carried on.

Not convinced a modern alternator needs an external voltage regulator. A billion cars can’t be wrong.

What is the manufacture date on your Odyssey, and did you load test it?

Karmutzen wrote: Or even a voltmeter as has already been suggested. GT-50 clock has a voltmeter, so does an MGL radio, so does any Garmin GPS connected to aircraft power, or the $15 dual USB port with a voltmeter between the ports

Surprisingly, Garmins best product ever, aera660, can’t display voltage as far as I know. Pretty wild they would drop a feature like that. If I’m wrong and someone knows how to display it, I’d love to hear.

I put a $20 Amazon voltmeter in my panel because analog ammeters can be hard to distinguish what’s happening.

A-1Skinner nailed it. You don’t have a battery problem, you have a charging problem.

First question: Does the plane have a generator or an alternator? These planes all came with generators, and those things don’t put out beans for charge. If that’s the case, first thing I’d do is install one of the new generation of lightweight alternators.

OR, if you do have an alternator, first check ALL wiring associated with that unit. Also, verify a GOOD ground connection from alternator to frame. Verify GOOD ground between engine and frame. Then verify function of voltage regulator.

I’d talk to someone about getting the alternator tested for output if it’s an older unit.

You DO NOT need to put a battery tender on an Odyssey battery because of cold. I parked a Husky with aft battery and no battery heat out at Fort Yukon regularly with temps at -40 and never had a weak start.

I’m not familiar with the type of Odyssey battery you refer to, nor do I understand what you mean by popping the top off it…….The Odyssey battery that’s “approved” in these planes is an SBS J-16 battery, and it is SEALED. If you pop the top off one of those, battery is junk.

Also, be careful charging Odyssey batteries. Too big a charge rate is potentially bad. Better to use a “Smart charger”.

But, your problem isn’t battery……it’s charging system. I’d get a mechanic to check it.

MTV

Trying to line up a mechanic to look at this issue.

I flew the other day and noticed that my radio reception was terrible, so I went ahead and got a coax cable and a new antenna installed today. That seemed to fix my radio issue. I ended up going for a flight afterwards, just to work on some landings. What I thought was going to be an uneventful trip, ended up being a bit of an issue. My plane has one of those stupid push-to-talk strap on mic switches latched onto the stick. No telling how old that thing was, but the tower controller got a bit pissed at me, understandably. I don't know if it was the cold weather or just that the mic switch was old, but it kept sticking with out me knowing it. I was on my downwind abeam the numbers and was wondering why I hadn't yet been given clearance to land, so I looked at the tower and that's when I noticed the red flashing light pointed in my direction. I trigged the switch to try to communicate, once I released I noticed I could finally hear them. They were a bit upset because they hadn't been able to communicate with others in the pattern. They told me to full stop and diagnose the issue, so I just went over to the avionics shop and bought a new stupid push-to-talk strap on mic switch lol. I realize that this could've been a potentially bad outcome, not just for me, but for other pilot's involved. I feel like a stuck mic is one of those things that's hard to realize is happening because you don't have any visual keys to it. Once I got on the ground, I was able to inspect the switch a bit closer and did notice that it wasn't popping all the way out upon release.

Anyone aware of a legit push-to-talk stick that I can get? I've seen the different grips to go on the stick that you can buy, but those aren't peaking my interest. Are there any all-in-one market options that'd fit a PA-12 that y'all are aware of?

Felt like a super embarrassing moment.

Not sure what radio or intercom you have but many have transmit lights/symbols. My Kx155, like many, shows a "T" when transmitting. Most PS Eng intercoms have a power light that turns red when transmitting. Helps with the stuck mic issue.

asa wrote:Not sure what radio or intercom you have but many have transmit lights/symbols. My Kx155, like many, shows a "T" when transmitting. Most PS Eng intercoms have a power light that turns red when transmitting. Helps with the stuck mic issue.

Thank you for the response, based on the manual, apparently a "TX" comes up. I will look for this next time up. Dang, I feel stupid now. What would I do without this forum.

So much going on right now, but not an excuse, I should've know this prior to flying.

CompSciAndFly wrote:

asa wrote:Not sure what radio or intercom you have but many have transmit lights/symbols. My Kx155, like many, shows a "T" when transmitting. Most PS Eng intercoms have a power light that turns red when transmitting. Helps with the stuck mic issue.

Thank you for the response, based on the manual, apparently a "TX" comes up. I will look for this next time up. Dang, I feel stupid now. What would I do without this forum.

So much going on right now, but not an excuse, I should've know this prior to flying.

Don’t beat yourself up. Airplane ownership, even of a brand new airplane can be a steep learning curve. You’re asking questions, and taking advice offered. You can’t do much more than that.

Push to talk: Those Velcro attached PTT switches actually work well, when relatively new. That said, drive over to Merrill Field and visit with the folks at Northern Lights Avionics. Gary Jr. there will give you the best advice on what works, what’s least expensive and what’s easiest to install. My guess: He’ll say keep the strap on.

But don’t get discouraged. I’d bet most new plane owners have similar tales. I do.

MTV

mtv wrote:.... Does the plane have a generator or an alternator? These planes all came with generators, and those things don’t put out beans for charge. If that’s the case, first thing I’d do is install one of the new generation of lightweight alternators.....

I agree with most of your comments, but why all the generator hate?
I had alternators in my last 3 airplanes, but a stock 35A generator in my current C180. It works just fine.

Downside- it's a bit heavier than an alternator. Big deal, it's a 180.
It doesn't charge at idle, so if I spent a lot of time taxiing around at night, it might be a problem.
But I don't, so it isn't.

Upside- if I leave the master on, or whatever, it will charge a completely flat battery after hand propping.
An alternator won't.
It also didn't cost me an extra thousand bucks for an "upgrade",
which can be put to better use buying gas, etc.

That last item might be a factor for the OP.
IMHO most charging issues I've had were traced to a broken wire,
or funky crimped-on connector,
usually up at the alternator connections.
Once it was a funky regulator- cheap & easy to swap out.
I'm thinking his problem is probably fixable for a lot less money than an alternator conversion would cost.

hotrod180 wrote:

mtv wrote:.... Does the plane have a generator or an alternator? These planes all came with generators, and those things don’t put out beans for charge. If that’s the case, first thing I’d do is install one of the new generation of lightweight alternators.....

I agree with most of your comments, but why all the generator hate?
I had alternators in my last 3 airplanes, but a stock 35A generator in my current C180. It works just fine.

Because we're discussing a Piper PA-12 here, NOT a Cessna 180. A Lycoming engine vs a Continental. Etc. ANd, I have had very bad experience with generators in these aircraft.

The "standard" generators that these planes came equipped with were 7 AMP generators, at least that's what at least three Super Cubs and one PA-12 I've flown came with. With those generators, if I turned on the landing lights (granted, incandescents, not LEDs back then) as I approached the airport, the next morning, the battery would have trouble starting the engine, in cold weather. Subsequent starts and an hour flight, and the generator wouldn't charge the battery sufficiently to top it off, again in cold weather.

And, a generator makes more power as RPM increases. At the power settings most folks run in these planes, the generator may not be making much power at all. So, as you approach the airport, power back, you're discharging the battery significantly. And, taxiing back to parking isn't going to do much, because the generator probably won't be charging at all. An alternator, on the other hand, if it's turning and has excitation power, will make power. Even at idle rpm, they make power.

Now, you can have those old generators rebuilt, and they might put out just a bit more amperage, but.....throwing good money after bad.

He MAY have a better generator than that. Or he may have an alternator. But, operating in cold weather, where you really, really want your charging system reliable and strong, I'd install an alternator. And, the alternators for these planes are also lighter, generally, than the generators.

But, first thing I'd do is check all the connections.

MTV

Consider checking your bus voltage when the airplane is running at power. You should be seeing on the order of 14 volts for a 12 volt battery. If not, likely a charging situation.

There was just a similar sounding problem on another forum, on a wait for it.....PA-12. He was told to check all connections, especially ground connections. Turns out that was the issue. He cleaned up ALL connections, added a ground strap on one place, and voila! Problem solved.

MTV

mtv wrote:A-1Skinner nailed it. You don’t have a battery problem, you have a charging problem.

First question: Does the plane have a generator or an alternator? These planes all came with generators, and those things don’t put out beans for charge. If that’s the case, first thing I’d do is install one of the new generation of lightweight alternators.

OR, if you do have an alternator, first check ALL wiring associated with that unit. Also, verify a GOOD ground connection from alternator to frame. Verify GOOD ground between engine and frame. Then verify function of voltage regulator.

I’d talk to someone about getting the alternator tested for output if it’s an older unit.

You DO NOT need to put a battery tender on an Odyssey battery because of cold. I parked a Husky with aft battery and no battery heat out at Fort Yukon regularly with temps at -40 and never had a weak start.

I’m not familiar with the type of Odyssey battery you refer to, nor do I understand what you mean by popping the top off it…….The Odyssey battery that’s “approved” in these planes is an SBS J-16 battery, and it is SEALED. If you pop the top off one of those, battery is junk.

Also, be careful charging Odyssey batteries. Too big a charge rate is potentially bad. Better to use a “Smart charger”.

But, your problem isn’t battery……it’s charging system. I’d get a mechanic to check it.

MTV

Interesting

We could notice a difference in our odysseys if the plane was outside in the cold for a couple nights vs in its normal heated hangar, and this was a 135 maintained turbo prop, with a if it needs to buy it budget, and two full time mechanics who’s job was that N number.

For my mear mortal self and my skywagons battery, in a un heated hangar, I just plug it in, small insurance for what 24v batteries go for.

mtv wrote:

hotrod180 wrote:

mtv wrote:.... Does the plane have a generator or an alternator? These planes all came with generators, and those things don’t put out beans for charge. If that’s the case, first thing I’d do is install one of the new generation of lightweight alternators.....

I agree with most of your comments, but why all the generator hate?
I had alternators in my last 3 airplanes, but a stock 35A generator in my current C180. It works just fine.

Because we're discussing a Piper PA-12 here, NOT a Cessna 180. A Lycoming engine vs a Continental. Etc. ANd, I have had very bad experience with generators in these aircraft.

The "standard" generators that these planes came equipped with were 7 AMP generators, at least that's what at least three Super Cubs and one PA-12 I've flown came with. With those generators, if I turned on the landing lights (granted, incandescents, not LEDs back then) as I approached the airport, the next morning, the battery would have trouble starting the engine, in cold weather. Subsequent starts and an hour flight, and the generator wouldn't charge the battery sufficiently to top it off, again in cold weather.

And, a generator makes more power as RPM increases. At the power settings most folks run in these planes, the generator may not be making much power at all. So, as you approach the airport, power back, you're discharging the battery significantly. And, taxiing back to parking isn't going to do much, because the generator probably won't be charging at all. An alternator, on the other hand, if it's turning and has excitation power, will make power. Even at idle rpm, they make power.

Now, you can have those old generators rebuilt, and they might put out just a bit more amperage, but.....throwing good money after bad.

He MAY have a better generator than that. Or he may have an alternator. But, operating in cold weather, where you really, really want your charging system reliable and strong, I'd install an alternator. And, the alternators for these planes are also lighter, generally, than the generators.

But, first thing I'd do is check all the connections.

MTV

+1

To add, generators are often heavier, less effective at charging the battery, have less sophisticated protection systems (less reliable), and are generally not used anymore for any new application (i.e. just generally not as good all around).

mtv wrote:You DO NOT need to put a battery tender on an Odyssey battery because of cold. I parked a Husky with aft battery and no battery heat out at Fort Yukon regularly with temps at -40 and never had a weak start.

And just to throw my 2c behind this too, I agree with the statement that you don't need a battery tender for the cold.

Batteries be slower to crank when it's cold, but it's not a charging issue. The chemistry inside a battery depends on temperature, you probably know this if you've ever dropped a dissolving tablet into ice cold water vs hot water. The reactions go slower in the cold. So, when you ask for a massive hit of electrons to turn the starter, from the chemicals inside the battery, the battery just cannot deliver as much power as quickly if it's cold. Even if it's fully charged.

Trickle charges / battery tenders are for planes that don't fly often enough, or batteries with a constant drain even when the master is off, or in some cases Li-ion batteries which need their cells rebalanced regularly.