About ten years ago a Bonanza went down in the Spotted Bear River in Montana just outside of the Bob Marshall Wilderness. As I recall there were two on board and they were unable to escape from the cabin. They could hear the occasional vehicle on a road that followed the river. There was a rifle on board and were able to signal help from a passerby. The plane was out of site from the road but within hearing distance of a rifle shot.

As I remember now the cause was determined to be a couple of holes burnt in pistons attributed to the use of too low an octane car gas.

We in the office have had this discussion a million times (well maybe not that many), pistol or shotgun? I was flying a guide who has been killing brown bears for over 30 years into the bush and I asked him. His words, not mine "Get a 12 gauge, and put Brenekki (sp) Black Magic Magnums in it". He carries a monster pistol but, again in his words "for when the thing is really, really down and needs something to help it be dead." So I went and bought a 12 gauge pump with a 20" barrel, put a folding stock on it, bought a nice waterproof back, threw some rations in it, a survival kit, and a first aid kit plus some extra stuff my EMT instructor suggested, added a box of double 0, and some bird shot to get food if needed. If I have to put down in the the bush, I will be okay. The whole thing fits takes up 6" diameter and 2.5 to 3 feet long, and fits perfect in the back of the plane.

Having said all that, I have been giving guided brown bear tours for two summers in Katmai and Lake Clark, and I carry a "bear flare" which is basically just a flare. The rangers in the parks also carry flares (they carry weapons for the two legged threats). We fly into a lodge which has been doing bear specific guiding for 25 years and they have only used the flares 5 times. I don't have experience with the electrice wires for camping so I won't comment.

I don't allow bear spray on my plane, because I am scared (unreasonably so given I allow flares and ammunition on my plane) that it will go off and I will not be able to fly the aircraft (memories of the CS chamber from the army I guess).

A side note, only after we get back do I tell people to go to youtube and watch the Brown Bear Fight video. If they saw it before they would never get on the plane.

mr.helix wrote:About ten years ago a Bonanza went down in the Spotted Bear River in Montana just outside of the Bob Marshall Wilderness. As I recall there were two on board and they were unable to escape from the cabin. They could hear the occasional vehicle on a road that followed the river. There was a rifle on board and were able to signal help from a passerby. The plane was out of site from the road but within hearing distance of a rifle shot.

As I remember now the cause was determined to be a couple of holes burnt in pistons attributed to the use of too low an octane car gas.

Are you sure it was a Bonanza? Would you happen to have a link to the NTSB report. I don't know how you could be trapped inside a Bo. A cabin door, two opening middle windows, a baggage door AND a rifle.

Headoutdaplane wrote:A side note, only after we get back do I tell people to go to youtube and watch the Brown Bear Fight video. If they saw it before they would never get on the plane.

This Brown Bear Fight Video? Doesn't look like he needs no stinkin' Brenneke Black Magic Magnums.

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Pick up a copy of a book titled "Bear Attacks, The Deadly Truth" by Sheldon. He does a good job of documenting actual events where the use of firearms, pepper spray, climbing trees, etc occurred. I met one of the individuals documented in the book and I can tell you he is a believer in carrying a good firearm after being caught without one and severely chewed upon.

He also documents cases where individuals were surprised and died before getting a shot off. Charges by bears into 12ga blasts are documented too and it is amazing how much well placed lead they can take before stopping.

I've also hunted black bears and wound up seeing some amazing fights with dogs and cornered bears, and also wounded bears. I can only describe them as unbelievably wicked. A man wouldn't stand a chance one-on-one without an equalizer.

I've done a fair amount of camping in bear country in AK, BC, MT, ID, & WY and have only had minor problems, but it only takes being in the wrong place at the wrong time once. I'm of the "it is best to be prepared" mindset and take all the precautions I can. Pepper spray can be strapped to a wing strut or gear leg if someone is worried about it in the cabin.

I do like the idea of electric fences, but haven't tried any. A short 12ga pump with slugs AND a heavy side arm are the best defense provided you have time to use one of them. A sidearm is only a backup, but is most likely to be with you when needed.

Is it just me or does it seem the recommendations for Pepper spray come mostly from the city dweller/greeny types? I am not trying to start an arguement but how many actual hardcore backwoods guys depend on Pepper spray? Most of the guys I know are more inclined to carry a firearm. I guess I just envision too many bad scenarios with spray. Short range, wind direction...hey we are pilots...we ALWAYS seem to have a headwind and I sure wouldn't want that crap coming back in my face when I am already on an overdose of adrenalin.

Oh, My fishing luck is the same as hotrods...now if I could just easily obtain some of that dynamite I might have better luck! But then I'd just end up useing to get rid of some of those pesky beaver dams that are on my property!

WW

I agree with WW on the pepper spray, with a caveat: If you are not proficient with a firearm/don't own one/don't want to own one, etc, then pepper spray is better than nothing.

That said, there seems to be this notion that pepper spray will disable the recipient. That is very much a fallicy. Ask any LE officer who's currently carrying the stuff.

Many (most?) LE agencies that issue pepper spray, or one of the other chemical sprays, require that each officer must be "exposed" to the spray themselves prior to carrying it. Trust me, that is a deeply moving religious experience, BUT it is not disabling. At least a couple of the agencies I know of now put the "trainee" in a situation, with an attacker (instructor) in a red man suit, the trainee gets sprayed in the face, and is required to fight the instructor, with whatever tools he has, short of a gun and pepper spray. The point being, if YOU are exposed to the stuff, you can't just give up....ya gotta fight.

So, if a trainee LE officer can fight through this stuff, do you suppose a bear could?

Your best hope with this stuff is that it might DISTRACT the bear, reduce his ability to find you, while you egress like a mother right on outta there.

Carry a gun, but only if you're comfortable with it, and proficient with it. That takes some time and effort, but so does everything else worthwhile.

MTV

I know of two cases that pepper spray was used at very close range with little effect.
One out of a window in a house and another from a piece of heavy equipment.
Guns are illegal in parks in AK. I don't think I would venture to far off the roads in these parks with only pepper spray.

Bonanza Man wrote:

mr.helix wrote:About ten years ago a Bonanza went down in the Spotted Bear River in Montana just outside of the Bob Marshall Wilderness. As I recall there were two on board and they were unable to escape from the cabin. They could hear the occasional vehicle on a road that followed the river. There was a rifle on board and were able to signal help from a passerby. The plane was out of site from the road but within hearing distance of a rifle shot.

As I remember now the cause was determined to be a couple of holes burnt in pistons attributed to the use of too low an octane car gas.

Are you sure it was a Bonanza? Would you happen to have a link to the NTSB report. I don't know how you could be trapped inside a Bo. A cabin door, two opening middle windows, a baggage door AND a rifle.

I think I can find the original newspaper story about the incident. I keep those for some reason and I overflew the plane and took some pictures before it was hauled out.

I think that there were injuries that prevented egress from the plane.

bcpstudent wrote:Guns are illegal in parks in AK. I don't think I would venture to far off the roads in these parks with only pepper spray.

Not even close to true. You can carry a gun in almost all parks in Alaska. I live in one National Park (Wrangell St. Elias and the largest National Park in America) and have property in another (Lake Clark National Park) and always carry guns into their back country.

36CFR13.19 specifically addresses firearms in Alaska National Parks. And with a few exceptions firearms ARE allowed in Alaska National Parks and Preserves. See a portion of that CFR as follows:

Nizina

§ 13.19 Weapons, traps and nets.
(a) This section applies to all park
areas in Alaska except Klondike Gold
Rush National Historical Park, Sitka
National Historical Park and the
former Mt. McKinley National Park,
Glacier Bay National Monument and
Katmai National Monument.
(b) Firearms may be carried within
park areas in accordance with applicable
Federal and State laws, except
where such carrying is prohibited or
otherwise restricted pursuant to § 13.30.

Headoutdaplane wrote:I don't allow bear spray on my plane, because I am scared (unreasonably so given I allow flares and ammunition on my plane) that it will go off and I will not be able to fly the aircraft (memories of the CS chamber from the army I guess).

Those of us that have been in the old CS chamber and gotten a good dose will agree with you. I was amazed at how many gallons of snot are stored in a person's head!!!!! No, it wasn't funny!!!!!

I'll stick with the 12 guage for serious stuff

I wish I'd had some pepper spray yesterday. I flew into a little private owned/public use local airport to visit a friend. When I walked back to my airplane, I was "surrounded" by a big Doberman. I'd seen someone walking it earlier, apparently an airport neighbor, well it was on it's own now galloping around the airport parking area. The guy I'd been visitng was familiar with him,& said he had developed a "playful" habit of nipping people as he ran by, and that if you hollered at him, he thought that meant you were interested in more "play". Well, I saw him comin' & avoided the old nip & run, but then got into a standoff with him trying to get aboard- I didn't wanna turn my back & get bit, and didn't want to start up with him nearby. He wouldn't chase the rocks I threw for him, and I was kinda hesitant to throw any at him. To tell the truth, that big SOB kinda put a scare into me, which pissed me off-- people who own dogs (esp big, mean-looking dogs like that) oughta keep their livestock secured. Not only to prevent people being threatened or bit, but (around airports) to prevent airplane/dog damage from propellers & such.
If I'd had some pepper spray with me, I'da hosed him down for sure. If I'd felt much more threatened, I'da been tempted to shoot him, but of course, my pistol was in my car back at the home airport- shame on me. And I can imagine the owner's reaction if I'd shot their poor little baby, just cuz he wanted to "play".
I'll probably get flamed by some dog owners here, but you might give some thought to this non-dog-owner point of view.

Eric

I was a private in 609th Trans. Co. in 1982 and we were in the "field" playing Army. Well the NBC officer thought it would be neat if the unit were attacked by air, so off go the two Warrant officers and him to the Huey to "attack" us with CS grenades and see how well we handled the situation. Well about the third or forth grenade got dropped in the helicopter after the pin had been pulled. Now this Huey had both doors open and the grenade wasn't in there burning for more than a sec. or two before it got kicked out, but it was enough to where aircraft control was seriously compromised . Neither one of the idiots had enough sense to have their mask on just in case.

And for the dog, ammonia works as well as anything for them. I used to ride a bicycle a lot and got in the habit of carrying a squirt gun with ammonia for them, of course they weren't hell bent on killing and eating me, they just wanted to chase something that would run from them.
Any type of animal that has shown that it is anything but the friendly, loving airport / country store kind of dog should be kept away from the public.

Yeah, I would rather carry a significant and familiar firearm despite laws and reg's in some places that ban them.

I dont know how man scoville units the bear spray comes in, but I have been exposed to 2 million SHU, and it aint very fun! I still get the premature sniffles, running nose when I smell a strong buffalo wing sauce or something like that.

I was qualifing and completing a professional course of fire for a govt job. We had Marine MP's that adminstered the test. Just a quick squirt, but for me
(I blabbed to them about being AIR FORCE) a little longer. Once we were "exposed" we had to fend off attackers in red man suits and use our ASP expandable batons.

Anyways, with one eye barely open and the other swelled shut, I did it. I wouldnt want to take the chance of carrying it in the plane or depending on it to ward off a bear. To many factors to coinsider like wind direction and distance for effective use...etc

I like the shorty 12 gauge suggestion and large cal. sidearm! I'll take my XD.45 against a bear anyday! Hopefully i wont have to find out!

Nizina wrote:

bcpstudent wrote:Guns are illegal in parks in AK. I don't think I would venture to far off the roads in these parks with only pepper spray.

Not even close to true. You can carry a gun in almost all parks in Alaska. I live in one National Park (Wrangell St. Elias and the largest National Park in America) and have property in another (Lake Clark National Park) and always carry guns into their back country.

36CFR13.19 specifically addresses firearms in Alaska National Parks. And with a few exceptions firearms ARE allowed in Alaska National Parks and Preserves. See a portion of that CFR as follows:

Nizina

§ 13.19 Weapons, traps and nets.
(a) This section applies to all park
areas in Alaska except Klondike Gold
Rush National Historical Park, Sitka
National Historical Park and the
former Mt. McKinley National Park,
Glacier Bay National Monument and
Katmai National Monument.
(b) Firearms may be carried within
park areas in accordance with applicable
Federal and State laws, except
where such carrying is prohibited or
otherwise restricted pursuant to § 13.30.

My bad. I should have stated that firearms are not permitted on national parks in Alaska.

bcpstudent wrote

Me bad. I should have stated that firearms are not permitted on national parks in Alaska.

Not a problem, but maybe I am still not being clear in what I am trying to say. In short, with the few exceptions noted in the Federal CFR that I included with my post, firearms are allowed in all State AND Federal parks in Alaska.

Not trying to be pushy, just trying to be clear.

Nizina

Nizina wrote:bcpstudent wrote

Me bad. I should have stated that firearms are not permitted on national parks in Alaska.

Not a problem, but maybe I am still not being clear in what I am trying to say. In short, with the few exceptions noted in the Federal CFR that I included with my post, firearms are allowed in all State AND Federal parks in Alaska.

Not trying to be pushy, just trying to be clear.

Nizina

I will start by saying I do not live there anymore and I am sure you know more than I about your area.
If you are saying that you can carry a firearm anywhere in a national park(Denali for example) I disagree.
Not trying to be pushy either. Just trying to understand how this is legal?

bcpstudent wrote:

Nizina wrote:bcpstudent wrote

Me bad. I should have stated that firearms are not permitted on national parks in Alaska.

Not a problem, but maybe I am still not being clear in what I am trying to say. In short, with the few exceptions noted in the Federal CFR that I included with my post, firearms are allowed in all State AND Federal parks in Alaska.

Not trying to be pushy, just trying to be clear.

Nizina

I will start by saying I do not live there anymore and I am sure you know more than I about your area.
If you are saying that you can carry a firearm anywhere in a national park(Denali for example) I disagree.
Not trying to be pushy either. Just trying to understand how this is legal?

Read the CFR that I provided. The old Denali boundaries (Mt. Mckinley) are indeed one of the few exceptions which is included in the CFR that I provided for you to read. Read it! You cannot carry a firearm in that portion of Denali National Park, but in almost all other State and Federal Parks in Alaska you can indeed carry a firearm. This was a special provision that was made in the federal law that created the Federal parks in Alaska in the 1980 Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act. And yes it is different than it is for Federal Parks in the lower-48. 36 CFR 13.19 codifies that law. Read it. I'm not just trying to give you my opinion. It is the law.

It is no skin off my nose if you believe ME or not. But do a little research. Don't put false information out on the internet and then just stick your head in the sand and say "I disagree." In fact, go to the web sites for each of the National Parks in Alaska and read the park rules. They all allow firearms with the exception of the few that are cited in 36 CFR 13.19 which I provided in my earlier post.

36 § 13.19 Weapons, traps and nets.
(a) This section applies to all park
areas in Alaska except Klondike Gold
Rush National Historical Park, Sitka
National Historical Park and the
former Mt. McKinley National Park,
Glacier Bay National Monument and
Katmai National Monument.
(b) Firearms may be carried within
park areas in accordance with applicable
Federal and State laws, except
where such carrying is prohibited or
otherwise restricted pursuant to § 13.30.

Respectfully
Nizina

Nizina wrote:

bcpstudent wrote:

Nizina wrote:bcpstudent wrote

Me bad. I should have stated that firearms are not permitted on national parks in Alaska.

Not a problem, but maybe I am still not being clear in what I am trying to say. In short, with the few exceptions noted in the Federal CFR that I included with my post, firearms are allowed in all State AND Federal parks in Alaska.

Not trying to be pushy, just trying to be clear.

Nizina

I will start by saying I do not live there anymore and I am sure you know more than I about your area.
If you are saying that you can carry a firearm anywhere in a national park(Denali for example) I disagree.
Not trying to be pushy either. Just trying to understand how this is legal?

Read the CFR that I provided. The old Denali boundaries are indeed one of the few exceptions which is included in the CFR that I provided for you to read. Read it! You cannot carry a firearm in that portion of Denali National Park, but in almost all other State and Federal Parks in Alaska you can indeed carry a firearm. This was a special provision that was made in the federal law that created the Federal parks in Alaska in 1982. And yes it is different than it is for Federal Parks in the lower-48. CFR 13.19 codifies that law. Read it. I'm not just trying to give you my opinion. It is the law.

It is no skin off my nose if you believe ME or not. But do a little research. Don't put false information out on the internet and then just stick your head in the sand and say "I disagree." In fact, go to the web sites for each of the National Parks in Alaska and read the park rules. They all allow firearms with the exception of the few that are cited in CFR 13.19 which I provided in my earlier post.

Respectfully
Nizina

Nizina, it's all good. I did not Know that the AK national parks were regulated differently. In defense, my head is out of the sand, I made it clear that you are more in the knowledge than I am, and I am still here.
Nothing personal, good info.