Split from Petaluma seminar thread... -Z
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Hello everyone,

Susan suggested I come over to check this site out. I don't know if I qualify as a Backcountry Pilot. However, I have flown into Hailey, ID, and a few other paved airstrips there. I often fly to, and over the Sierra's.

I wanted to add my thanks to Susan, Gary, Sparky, and Rob and the entire association up there for the great fly-in at Petaluma. I've been a pilot living in Silicon Valley for over 20 years and have not been to Petaluma even once (went over it many times on the way to Clear Lake (Lampson). I've been twice in the last couple of months now. Sparky and Rob did an outstanding job and I really enjoyed myself. My buddy Harold enjoyed it too. Harold got his PPL in 1948, he’s been flying a while ‘eh?

One of the questions I have is do any of you folks fly tricycle gear aircraft into back country. I have a Beech Sundowner. The gear is quite strong, but I don't want to push it. I often land in Frasier Lake California, which is a nice grass and water private airport that the owners are kind enough to let visitors use. I have never felt like I am doing any damage on the grass with my strong gear. It appears like a place like Johnson Creek would be okay as it is grass. I don't know if there are many 180 hp machines in there, but I think a California friend said he saw some flavor of Mouse in there once?

Had a little trouble with the initial question, but got past that. So, thank you in advance for any comments, and for the board Zane.

Regards,
Conway

Conway, It's all about HP to weight. I am no expert but there are lots of 180 HP planes that come to JC.

Fly early and light.

Cheers...Rob

Conway wrote: It appears like a place like Johnson Creek would be okay as it is grass. I don't know if there are many 180 hp machines in there

That's an abundance of power for JC.

Hi Conway,

Welcome! I rode with you and your friend over to the seminar last Saturday. I'm glad you brought him and that you enjoyed the show.

I'd add to what Rob said: it's all about power, weight, heat (DA) and wind. If you review the accident reports for Johnson Creek (search for Yellow Pine on the NTSB web site http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/query.asp), you'll find plenty of capable aircraft that got into trouble with the wrong combination of any of these variables.

I would also repeat what Sparky said about getting dual instruction before venturing into mountain strips. Plenty of guys have flown into Johnson Creek without first getting dual and without any mishap. I'd also bet that the pilots on the NTSB reports who had other than mechanical problems hadn't had any dual either.

Here's an example relevant to Johnson Creek. Remember how Sparky recommends flying a normal left traffic pattern inside the canyon for landing to the south at Johnson Creek? That's not something that most flatland pilots are likely to be comfortable doing unless they've had some instruction and have practiced flying tight, slow, steep and stabilized approaches. Instead, they'll fly a few miles over the ridge north to the town of Yellow Pine, make a 180 and then drag it in on a long final along the creek. That's mostly a blind approach and increases the odds of being too high for even that generous length of runway. That can result in an emergency ground loop or a fatal go around. It also sets up conflicts with other traffic flying normal patterns inside the canyon and with departing aircraft.

Sorry for the shaggy dog tale. There's nothing here that hasn't been said before, and probably better, but it helps if everyone is on the same program in the canyons, especially during busy fly-in times.

I hope this helps.

CAVU

CAVU wrote:Hi Conway,

Remember how Sparky recommends flying a normal left traffic pattern inside the canyon for landing to the south at Johnson Creek? That's not something that most flatland pilots are likely to be comfortable doing unless they've had some instruction and have practiced flying tight, slow, steep and stabilized approaches.

CAVU

So how do all these flatland folks get these wide patterns? I constantly will be downwind and look over and see some guy a mile or more from me that says he is on downwind

I have always put the strut brace on the runway. Is there some reason to be so far away?

When we had the Baron we stayed out a little bit but my god I see guys all the time that could never make the field if they had a failure.

So whats the deal? maybe some of us need to learn flatland ops

mr scout wrote:So how do all these flatland folks get these wide patterns?

Beats me--I'm not a CFI. Seriously, I flew large patterns when I first got my ticket. My primary flight instructor told me to keep it in close, but he also taught me a) mortal fear of the low end of the airspeed indicator (stall avoidance), and b) that final should always be flown on the VASI (I learned at those kinds of airports). With the typical TPA being 1,000 agl, it's hard to fly a reasonable size pattern if you're carrying excess speed and need to fly the VASI on final.

Another reason I stretched the pattern was that I subconsciously wanted to buy more time to assess how things were going and to make corrections. Since I was already going too fast and didn't want to slow down, that meant stretching things out.

Anyway, that's what I think may be going on. I'll get off the couch now.

CAVU

Thank you for the advice everyone. I was more concerned about the tricycle gear than patterns, DA, or anything else. It's funny, I call the guys east of the Rockies "flatlanders". Flying over the Sierras, in Nevada, and in Idaho hardly qualifies one as a flatlander, but I guess the definition for Backcountry is different, so I'm sure guys like me are considered "flatlanders" to all-ya’all.

Chris PM’s me, and I will respond when able, I'm in the middle of a bunch of stuff this week, getting ready for Memorial Day. You guys are great for answering, and I really appreciate your help.

Conway

I have about 120 hrs in a Beachcraft Muskateer that had an IO346 (165HP) for an engine. I fly a 182B (tri-cycle) now and have been into many backcountry strips including Lower Loon.

The Muskateer and also the Sundowner have a beefier geer than my 182. Yours has more HP. I would not hesitate flying into JC with the Musky if not close to gross.

JC has bitten a few folks in the butt so do it when it is cool. Check your performance at that altitude and add a factor to takeoff distance for grass.

Just loved that Muskateer

Tim

Conway wrote:I was more concerned about the tricycle gear than patterns, DA, or anything else. ...I'm sure guys like me are considered "flatlanders" to all-ya’all.
Conway

I doubt that people would consider you a flatlander but were pointing out that, at least in Idaho, horsepower and performance would limit you more than your tricycle gear.

Utah's back country airstrips are a bit different. Since many have not received any maintenance in many years they can be quite overgrown. Strips that are very over grown are best tackled with over sized tires which are usually not found on tricycle gear airplanes.

Excellent advice and an excellent board you all have here. Rob, I guess that is the trick, weight to power ratio, and the grass. I fly between Silicon Valley and Twin Falls, Hailey, and hopefully soon Blackfoot and Pocatello. The same weight to power ratio calculations are critical even on paved runways between here and there. I know just from the few grass strips around here that is an added factor.

Thank you all for adding to my knowledge, I really appreciate the help. I’m feeling pretty good about taking my C-23 in there if the temperature and other mountain factors are in my favor.

Conway

Conway wrote: Silicon Valley ------ few grass strips around here

Tell us where. A fly in with catered food sounds good to me.

Tim

http://www.airnav.com/airport/1C9

The above is a grass strip near Hollister. It also has a water runway but that is used rarely.

Conway,
MC Call is holding classes on the 6/23/08 or you can get a private lesson or two if interested.

http://www.mountaincanyonflying.com/browser_help.html

Conway, I fly a 182 Cessna it has the original sized tires and wheels. I have never had any trouble. I haven't been into some of the smaller strips but I have been into Sulphur Creek, Big Creek, Warren, Johnson Creek, and Chamberlin Basin. I have some videos on You tube. If you would like to check them out just go to
www.youtube.com/skybobb That will get you to where the videos are and you can just surf or search. Bob

Sojorrn,

Yep, been to and landed at Frasier Lake many times. Bob, I love the videos, great fun! Tim, you must know me, catered backcountry dining, it’s the only way to go! Isn’t that the way everyone does it?

I have a buddy in Pocatello that is a very experience backcountry guy, and CFI. I will likely give him a call to do some backcountry work. It is not going to happen this summer, but perhaps next.

Thank you all.
Conway