I have been thinking about those who read these postings who may have been involved in any of the recent mishaps. I feel like I need to apologize for being insensitive. The truth is, all of the rest of us empathize with you. Each of us has made mistakes that have either resulted in a wreck or easily could have.

We are glad you are alive and encourage you to get back in the saddle, learn from any mistakes, get training where needed, and keep your chin up!

Amen----- I have scared the hell out of a runway light or two in my early days when learning in a Cessna 170B, I have been blessed by not having any big boo bos. I sympathize with those that have had mishaps in their aircraft. We feel your pain! Bob

Well said Skymaule! I concur on all counts! I am beginning to believe that there are pilots who have bent airplanes and pilots who will. Ideally, everyone will learn from those mistakes that turn out disastrous.

As much as we love our "STEEDS" they are still just machines but that still doesn't make you any less ill when one sees an aircraft torn up or tear one up yourself. The personal injury to one's physical self and pride can be a whole lot worse that some bent metal.
Once it happens to you, you become a little less criticle and a little more understanding.
I hope I learn from my mistakes and the mistakes of others and wish these folks a better day that they may return to aviation

Years ago I subscribed to Flying Magazine (I think). I would immediately go to the back of the magazine to the regular article called "I learned about flying from that". May still be a regular article, I don't know. I would study these with great intensity. Flying is a complicated and risky venture. Complacency, over confidence and ego are found in most accidents.

Flying in Idaho has been a welcome challenge. It has stretched me and made me a better pilot. I was bored, complacent. These back country accidents serve as a way to learn about this specific type of flying. The flyins and the forums help me as well.

Although I do have judgments about some of these pilots, their bad judgment can be a learning experience for me. Of course it would be great if they learned, but I have no control over that.

I do not believe that I am destined to crash or ground loop my plane. I hear this in these forums and it bothers me that anyone would put this in their consciousness. The universe is listening, be careful what you think. It does require willingness to learn and action to insure that I do everything I can to make my next flight a successful flight.

There but for the grace of God, go I.

Accidents happen every year to pilots who's skill levels exceed mine by extraordinary measures. This brought me to conclude long ago that anything can happen to any one of us at any time. Not to say an accident is inevitable, only that no one is immune.

mauleace wrote:I do not believe that I am destined to crash or ground loop my plane.

I agree with this and what Low & Slow said in the other thread about our responsibility to our passengers/participants and loved-ones to get training and be competent. No one wishes any of the victims in these unfortunate accidents other than well. For purposes of learning from what happened, it makes sense to recognize that there are mistakes and then there are Mistakes.

We're not talking about ground loops or fender benders here. I've made my share of mistakes, but if I really thought that it just was matter of time or chance before I did something that was likely to kill me and/or my loved ones, I'd hang it up.

Sorry if this comes across as insensitive. To me, it's just the truth. Mother nature and the laws of physics aren't sensitive.

CAVU

CAVU wrote:

mauleace wrote:I do not believe that I am destined to crash or ground loop my plane.

I agree with this and what Low & Slow said in the other thread about our responsibility to our passengers/participants and loved-ones to get training and be competent. No one wishes any of the victims in these unfortunate accidents other than well. For purposes of learning from what happened, it makes sense to recognize that there are mistakes and then there are Mistakes.

We're not talking about ground loops or fender benders here. I've made my share of mistakes, but if I really thought that it just was matter of time or chance before I did something that was likely to kill me and/or my loved ones, I'd hang it up.

Sorry if this comes across as insensitive. To me, it's just the truth. Mother nature and the laws of physics aren't sensitive.

CAVU

CAVU,

No apology is necessary IMHO. I know of a couple of different pilots that were well qualified and could pass a physical and hung it up because they knew they were no longer proficient and didn't have the time or desire to do the recurrent training. I have great respect for their ability to make that difficult decision.

Gotta' put pride aside and ask yourself, "Am I fit, to make this flight ?"

Within the last two years Scott Crossfield, Jim Leroy, Shaun Lunt, and other very competent airmen have made fatal mistakes or bent airplanes. Do you think that any of them thought that they were about to make a decision that would end up disastrous? These guys were very knowledgeable, accomplished, calculated, and experienced pilots. Well above average, I might imagine.

The pilot who crashed the Mooney at Big Creek on Monday? Same story with regards to his decision making process. No one decides that they are going to crash and burn.

We use good judgment and command our ships precisely and with confidence and that is what we grow accustomed to. We also grow accustomed to expanding our envelope of experience to more demanding environments and learn from our successes and from our mistakes with every new experience.

Throughout our piloting days we develop a sphere of knowledge that we rely upon that may have always kept us out of significant trouble. Does this sphere contain everything that we will ever need to know? Can we minimize the probability of screwing up through diligence and deliberate awareness? Can we completely eliminate the possibility of screwing up?

Pilots are typically humans who embrace the spirit of adventure, which is to say that as much as we aspire to perfection, even the best are inclined to experience random episodes of absentmindedness and flawed judgment, and we tend to place ourselves in unfamiliar situations.

Complacence is a great hazard lurking within us. It is as much of a threat to us as a strong downdraft and is as real as high density altitude. They don’t mention it in the books, or ask about it in the written exam, but for me it still seems a factor worthy of evaluation.

An elegantly articulated observation Scolopax!

Scolopax wrote:The pilot who crashed the Mooney at Big Creek on Monday? Same story with regards to his decision making process. No one decides that they are going to crash and burn.

True enough but he did make the decision that he was capable of landing Big Creek which it appears he was not. In that regard, perhaps one should be better at evaluating one's own abilities or fitness for a particular flight. Sometimes the complacency comes into play when an "unfit" pilot has gotten away with too many close calls and becomes immune to the warning signs.

We recently had a fly-in where one of our fellow BCP'ers decided he did not have the skills to attempt Johnson Creek. I applaud his wherewithal to recognize he might not be ready for the proposed flight when there was plenty of pressure to go anyway.

Sometimes the signs are there but are ignored, with dire consequences...

Scolopax wrote:Within the last two years Scott Crossfield, Jim Leroy, Shaun Lunt, and other very competent airmen have made fatal mistakes or bent airplanes. Do you think that any of them thought that they were about to make a decision that would end up disastrous? These guys were very knowledgeable, accomplished, calculated, and experienced pilots. Well above average, I might imagine.

The pilot who crashed the Mooney at Big Creek on Monday? Same story with regards to his decision making process. No one decides that they are going to crash and burn.

We use good judgment and command our ships precisely and with confidence and that is what we grow accustomed to. We also grow accustomed to expanding our envelope of experience to more demanding environments and learn from our successes and from our mistakes with every new experience.

Throughout our piloting days we develop a sphere of knowledge that we rely upon that may have always kept us out of significant trouble. Does this sphere contain everything that we will ever need to know? Can we minimize the probability of screwing up through diligence and deliberate awareness? Can we completely eliminate the possibility of screwing up?

Pilots are typically humans who embrace the spirit of adventure, which is to say that as much as we aspire to perfection, even the best are inclined to experience random episodes of absentmindedness and flawed judgment, and we tend to place ourselves in unfamiliar situations.

Complacence is a great hazard lurking within us. It is as much of a threat to us as a strong downdraft and is as real as high density altitude. They don’t mention it in the books, or ask about it in the written exam, but for me it still seems a factor worthy of evaluation.

I would add to your list the names of three highly experienced backcountry 135 pilots and mountain flying instructors who died flying in Central Idaho in the last 10 years. One thing we know for sure is that all of these pilots, including the ones you mention, spent a lot of time and effort over years and decades to train and build experience. Yes, they still got bit. But I don’t think it’s fair to lump them in with people who venture into the mountains without training or experience and who then make multiple mistakes that are both serious and predictable. Experts are never accident-proof, but the latter are accidents waiting to happen.

We do not know if the pilots of the Mooney and the Tobago had training or whether they had any significant experience flying into places like Big Creek. The information available suggests that they did not, but we don’t know the answer at this point.

Just because it can and does happen to the best doesn’t mean that everyone it happens to is the best or that they must have done everything they needed to do in order to try to be as good as they needed to be. If it was just the pilot’s skin, I’d be more inclined to shrug it off as risk necessary for individual freedom. With others on board, it’s not so simple.

Who knows, maybe we'll find out that these pilots were highly experienced in the country and trained in mountain operations. If that turns out to be the case, then it's a good warning against complacency. If not, let's hope that others who might otherwise be tempted to DIY-it in learning to fly the backcountry take heed.


CAVU

You guys are good! I still think "I shoulda been a cowboy"!

Good dialogue.

I understand what you are saying Jr.CubBuilder but virtually the same thing could be said about cars. Cars give us freedom, like an airplane. Anybody, no matter what their driving experience can up and die in a car accident. Many tens of thousands do every year. Way more in terms of numbers than in airplanes. A moments inattention can kill you in a car. Think about what cell phones are doing. And I don't think we are genetically predisposed to drive cars any more than airplanes.

I don't think it is the "danger" junky in you, I think it is the "challenge" junky! By far, fewer people are willing to invest the time and energy into learning to fly than they are driving. Part of that is, quite frankly, because cars are more practical than airplanes. (How often to you go to the mall or take in a movie in your plane?) But a large part of it is simply because it is a lot more challenging and we pilots place a high value on the rewards we receive by meeting that challenge and flying! Most people don't, hence the 1/2 of one percent of the population that flies.

Don't forget that statistics plays a large part of this.

If you want to compare the hours flown in the mountains w/o incident, people like Sparky and Shawn are going to far and away the safer pilots per hour flown, in that enviroment.

We weekend warriors will never win the safe hours / incident game.

To try and lump the professionals in with the weekender and say it can happen to anyone isn't really fair. You have to look at hours flown between incidents.

This has gotten very interesting, a lot of food for thought...

Several years ago someone asked what in the world would I do if i won the $100 million dollar lottery. My response was that the $100 million was probably not enough, because I am a pilot. No doubt left to my fantasies, aviation affords me an unlimited number of options of aircraft and types of flying. I would need a light jet with adequate range for Hawaii, a bigger tailwheel and a regional airplane for short trips. Of course, I don't know how to fly 2 out of 3 of these and would have to learn how.

There are many great pilots who I have learned from and respect. But I doubt if there are any pilots who can fly anything anywhere. I was impressed on one of my trips to JC to learn of all of the military and airline pilots attracted to the backcountry flying. Many reported it to be a real challenge, a thrill. I flew in loose formation with an SWA captain as he looked at many of the strips along the Salmon. He would make low passes and check them out. He landed at none of them. He knew his limits and the limits of his aircraft.

And there was the airline pilot who flew his 210 into the side of a mountain making an instrument approach a few years ago near Ukiah. He was a veteran with many hours in jets and airliners, but amazingly, few hours in a single engine airplane.

I think the trick is knowing when to quit. As has been said here. Knowing the limit and having the guts to say no. The guts to say, we are not going, the weather is too bad or I am just not comfortable with the conditions.

Then there is the element of risk. It would be safer to sit on the couch and watch TV. Pilots are at higher risk. We fly old airplanes into mountainous areas with strips that are not maintained. We have to be a bit crazy to strap on BushWheels and fly into one way strips at the bottom of a 3,00 ft canyon in a wilderness with access only by foot, horseback or air.

But it is so alluring, I cannot resist. I have landed at very few strips in Idaho and I have been there several times. Many times I am happy to sit at JC and watch the planes and do some hangar flying the others at the field. It has been some of the most interesting and fun flying I have ever done. And I plan to return this year and will give a try at one or two more strips.

In the end, PIC is an awesome responsibility. Best to keep the ego in check and listen to the gut, as it is always right.

Skystrider wrote:I understand what you are saying Jr.CubBuilder but virtually the same thing could be said about cars. Cars give us freedom, like an airplane. Anybody, no matter what their driving experience can up and die in a car accident. Many tens of thousands do every year. Way more in terms of numbers than in airplanes. A moments inattention can kill you in a car. Think about what cell phones are doing. And I don't think we are genetically predisposed to drive cars any more than airplanes.

I don't think it is the "danger" junky in you, I think it is the "challenge" junky! By far, fewer people are willing to invest the time and energy into learning to fly than they are driving. Part of that is, quite frankly, because cars are more practical than airplanes. (How often to you go to the mall or take in a movie in your plane?) But a large part of it is simply because it is a lot more challenging and we pilots place a high value on the rewards we receive by meeting that challenge and flying! Most people don't, hence the 1/2 of one percent of the population that flies.

I was thinking about this yesterday while driving from job to job. Times are getting tough and right now Jean and I are selling our Harley's and I thought, what if we have to sell the Maule. I don't think it will come to that but I started to think of reasons and an argument for keeping it. THe one thing that constantly entered my mind was "I love the freedom of doing what most of the rest of the world can't do" I guess England and Germany have General aviation but cost of flying is so prohibitive and rules over there make it all but impossible. There are tough days at work when I'm on the way home and about to pass the airport that I pull in and just sit on the couch in the hangar and look at my Maule with a beer in hand. Then there are others that I pull it out and fly over the back country as the sun goes down and the air is quiet and smooth and I think,"This is heaven" . I forget about all the finacial crap and petty women shit I had to put up with at work and just concentrate on flying. (I Install and sell Draperies and window coverings) Hence the dealing with women and their petty shit for the past 30 years. As a result I'm also a member of BCAH. Anyway, I digress, and I think I need another beer....

Butch,

Your a classic and I'm glad to have you as a friend...

Mark

N6EA wrote:Butch,

Your a classic and I'm glad to have you as a friend...

Mark

Same here, You Ashole!

Wow!