My wife & I spent many years as military flight instructors in the T-34C (PT-6 turbine), both during active duty and as a reservist. And while I wish we could buy a surplus T-34B with a big recip motor, they are way out of my price range. Since then, we've accumulated a few thousand hours in Cessnas, but, flying side-by-sides with yokes never really appealed to us in the same way that flying tandem airplanes did. Now, we have 3 teenagers that we want to train, before they head off to military aviation.

Which are good examples of tandem-seat trainers, that are both: fairly easy to fly as a student pilot, and provide at least decent visibility for the CFI from the rear seat? So far, we've been looking at 7/8-GCBC's and wide-body PA-12/18's.

Beside looking around both sides of the student's head, we plan to mount a Garmin Aero 796 or iPad with synthetic vision on the back of the front seat, and an AOA indicator up high on the dash or side window sill.

Thanx, Dave.

I hear the chipmunk is a great option on the "cheap"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havill ... 1_Chipmunk

Seems really difficult to beat a 7GCBC for tandem training and a great all around airplane to let your kids not only train in but actually have fun in later. Tailwheel, capable on grass and such, aerobatic, simple, etc.

That being said, I would never buy one if I could afford a PA18 or 8GCBC unless I was only using it for training.

I used a 7GCBC to teach a couple young guys their license last year. Also teach both aerobatics and tailwheel with a Super Decathlon. Viz seems fine, but I like a little foam on the seat to lift me up a little. Both are a little overpowered for a trainer, first time they get into a normal airplane the runway is going to seem real short. I put the 7GCBC on 26” ABW after their license and kept on teaching them off-airport stuff.

I found an iphone in a shirt pocket plenty for the nav/airspace part. For instruments I put the airspeed and altimeter at the far right and left of the panel, so I can see them easily from the back. G5 center, which is all the student usually references.

Here’s a shot of the panel following I5 north near Eugene a few weeks ago.

Any cub or champ family member will do.

The local flight school put their sport cub on its nose about 4 times before it was finally destroyed on the 5th incident. I suspect it wouldn't have gone over if it was equipped with heel brakes. Students panic and can really add inadvertent and powerful brake input with toe brakes when getting wild on the rudder pedals. I feel like heel brakes help keep those actions more deliberate.

Getting the instructor's butt up off the floor and head as high as possible is really important. Champ and Citabria are better than Cubs, tandem Taylorcraft, Porterfield, etc.

The less the power, the better the energy management training. The less braking (none being absolute best), the better the dynamic proactive rudder training. The less instruments (none being absolute best), the better the contact flying training.

I really like my '65 Champion 7ECA with the Continental O-200. It does nothing really fast (including cruise - about 90-95 mph at a reasonable 2500 rpm), but it definitely teaches you what the rudder pedals are for, and you'll either learn to slip the plane really well, or you'll land long a lot... Cheap to purchase, insure, and "feed" (only 4.5 gph on my typical flights). Oh, yeah -- it has heel brakes!

As a Citabria owner who intends to start teaching from the back seat I can tell you that anything bigger than a business card stuck to the back of the front seat will be in the way of the rear stick.
As above, you can see the airspeed indicator, altimeter and T/Cas well as engine instruments.

I got my tail wheel endorsement and learned mountain flying with a great instructor sitting in back.

Other than the occasional "I don't think we're going to make it" from the back seat it worked out great.

I learned in Cessna 140's and when i was half way through training bought and finished in a 7ECA. Great plane and you can learn energy management like contact is talking about with them. My had no flaps, heel breaks and was a wonderful plane for spinning and limited aerobatics.

I would love to have that plane again.

Husky or Husky pup is a consideration as is the 7ECA Citabria.

Kurt

Lots of options available. To me, a nice 7 AC or GC etc. Champ is a fantastic trainer.

But, pretty much any planes noted above would work fine.

I never worry about seeing instruments from the back. Fly the airplane yourself till you’ve got a good feel for it, and you won’t need to see instruments in a BASIC trainer. Peek around their heads some if you must.

An “AOA” device? I’d never do that for a trainer. The devices approved for certificated civil A/C are very different (and less effective) than what you used in the Texan II I’m guessing, but in any case, you’re supposed to be teaching them to FLY the damn thing.

Cranky old fart out.....

MTV

Thanx to everyone for your recommendations of possible tandem seat trainers!

MTV - The T-34C was the "Turbo Mentor", while the T-6 "Texan II" is the derivative of the Pilatus PC-9 that has replaced it. Your dislike of GA AOA indicators is well known, albeit less well founded, and I'll take your unsolicited opinion about how I should conduct flight instruction "under advisement"

hamer - Those Chipmunks look really cool, and researching them led me to discover a couple of nice L-19 Bird Dogs for sale. Both would be fun to fly, but, I'm not sure if I could maintain a "warbird" airframe to the level that they deserve?

We'll probably concentrate on the 7/8-GCBC series . . . .

Thanx again, Dave.

Have a look a useful load. The Bellancas can be limited but....having owned a 7ECA, 7GCBC, and a few hundred in an 8GCBC I found them all to be good at training the pilot with low maintenance.

I also owned PA-11, PA-12, and PA-18. They are easy to fly, perhaps too easy compared with the Champs. For economy the 7ECA is hard to beat and the lack of flaps and lower power will expose the newb to flying the wing. Pilots with access to power and flaps tend to use them and rarely reduce power and fly clean to explore that part of their behavior.

Gary

I have a friend that's done primary training in an 8GCBC for years and recently switched to an 8KCAB with the long landing gear and he loves it.
At first he thought the lack of flaps and slightly higher landing speed would be an issue but after a few students he says they do just fine with it.

BluNosDav wrote:Thanx to everyone for your recommendations of possible tandem seat trainers!

MTV - The T-34C was the "Turbo Mentor", while the T-6 "Texan II" is the derivative of the Pilatus PC-9 that has replaced it. Your dislike of GA AOA indicators is well known, albeit less well founded, and I'll take your unsolicited opinion about how I should conduct flight instruction "under advisement"

hamer - Those Chipmunks look really cool, and researching them led me to discover a couple of nice L-19 Bird Dogs for sale. Both would be fun to fly, but, I'm not sure if I could maintain a "warbird" airframe to the level that they deserve?

We'll probably concentrate on the 7/8-GCBC series . . . .

Thanx again, Dave.

Well, then, get yourself a new LSA with glass everything, “AOA” flaps, JATO, and whatever else.

As Gary pointed out above, some of us believe that, taught from the start to “fly the wing”, a budding aviator will have a sound foundation of skills to build on.

But, whatever winds your watch. Lots of ab initio training programs out there teaching youngsters to fly an airliner from day one. And I’ve flown with a number of those folks later in a small airplane in the Bush. Often not pretty.

But, it’s your choice.

MTV

Have taught 2 teenagers to fly in 8KCAB. I think any of the Citabria/Decathlon line of aircraft are excellent basic trainers (don't get too much power...as others have shared...learn to really fly with low power and you will be much better off in the long run.)

You need to "know" the plane you will teach in... the bigger your comfort level...the more you can allow your student to explore the operating envelope and still be comfortable. I'm a believer in airspeed, altimeter, needle/ball, and don't think any of the fancy gizmos are the best for beginning students. Both the students I had went off on their first cross-country with only a chart, and operate often under a Class B. The GPS and other equipment was introduced later.

I find there in no room on the back of the front seat for anything...not even a pocket on the back of the seat, due to stick travel for rear seat pilot.
I have a Ram claw with a phone holder for me in the back seat, and occasionally reference ForeFlight on it.
The youth today, I believe, can transition to the glass instruments and technology very quickly from "old school" instruments, but seem greatly challenged in going the opposite direction.

A proud moment for me was when both transitioned to flying in the back seat and had no visibility to the instruments on the panel in front.

I believe there are a million ways to learn to fly...choose your path and get going, the kids will enjoy it!
I've been fortunate to experience airplanes with no attitude indicator all the way to Cat III autolandings.
I still enjoy flying the Decathlon myself when the kids are at school.

MS Pirate wrote:Have taught 2 teenagers to fly in 8KCAB. I think any of the Citabria/Decathlon line of aircraft are excellent basic trainers (don't get too much power...as others have shared...learn to really fly with low power and you will be much better off in the long run.)

You need to "know" the plane you will teach in... the bigger your comfort level...the more you can allow your student to explore the operating envelope and still be comfortable. I'm a believer in airspeed, altimeter, needle/ball, and don't think any of the fancy gizmos are the best for beginning students. Both the students I had went off on their first cross-country with only a chart, and operate often under a Class B. The GPS and other equipment was introduced later.

I find there in no room on the back of the front seat for anything...not even a pocket on the back of the seat, due to stick travel for rear seat pilot.
I have a Ram claw with a phone holder for me in the back seat, and occasionally reference ForeFlight on it.
The youth today, I believe, can transition to the glass instruments and technology very quickly from "old school" instruments, but seem greatly challenged in going the opposite direction.

A proud moment for me was when both transitioned to flying in the back seat and had no visibility to the instruments on the panel in front.

I believe there are a million ways to learn to fly...choose your path and get going, the kids will enjoy it!
I've been fortunate to experience airplanes with no attitude indicator all the way to Cat III autolandings.
I still enjoy flying the Decathlon myself when the kids are at school.

What he ^^ said.

MTV

She, Mike. She's a great Air Guard 141 driver, Fed X Airbus driver, and instructor in Citabria and Pacer. She picked up my stuff really fast.

Thanks Jim, but it's nice to just be one of the Backcountry Pilots...
he or she is not important...

Sharing perspectives...and being open to new ideas is the key...

MS Pirate wrote:Thanks Jim, but it's nice to just be one of the Backcountry Pilots...
he or she is not important...

Sharing perspectives...and being open to new ideas is the key...

My bad, MS....... . I’m not really a sexist....too friggin old.

Nonetheless, I seriously liked your opinion.

And, Jim, thanks for the correction!

MTV