Can anyone explain to me how it is handled when a plane is sold/purchased that is in the middle of phase 1 testing. I assume no "ferry permit" is available, correct? So that leaves either flying off the remaining time of phase 1 or removing the wings and putting the plane on a trailer. Do you have to start all over with the phase 1 in the new location or can you continue where you left off?

FSDO's can vary on this so it is best to contact your FSDO to get their input. You are correct about a ferry permit, I too doubt they will issue one.

I don't see any reason you should not be able to get a ferry permit. Assuming it is currently in it's fly-off condition. It has an airworthiness certificate. If it is safe to fly you should be able to get a permit. Your local DAR will set up new boundaries to complete the fly-off hours.

I moved from Oregon to Washington during phase 1 testing but it was a kitfox so no problem moving it on a trailer. I called the new FSDO...Spokane...to ask for a new flight test area. Their answer was to issue a complete new Airworthy Certificate and Operating Limitations with the new flight test area. They did this over the phone and asked I send in the old Airworthy certificate. I was a little reluctant but did it and a new one came in the mail in about a week.

Now to move a plane that can't be trailered easily I would first call the original FSDO and ask for a route to the new home be added to the operating Limitations. It may or may not work. If the new teast area is in the same FSDO area it should work. Anyhow I'm pretty sure it will be no problem getting new operating limitations with tne new test area from the new FSDO.

You don't have to start over on the flight test hours.

My Special for the Turbine 206 was initially only 50 NM in Mi but I was trying to get the airplane to Mo. I called my FSDO in Mo and they were the office of NO, Said to go to the original issued FSDO. My argument was that I wanted to come to your area and they should grant the approval. My DAR finally wrote the paperwork including a corridor and 50Nm at my base. I asked the DAR about a ferry permit for traveling outside the 50nm for paint and he said call the local FSDO. We will see.

It all depends on where you are at and the FSDO. When I called ours to do my inspection they literally laughed at me and said they were so backed it that it would be a year so I had to deal with a DAR and pay him a nice chunk of change. Another thing to consider is the purpose of Phase I. Are you ready to be a test pilot for someone else's building skills? I know it took me a phase I and then some to work all the little quirks out of my plane and get the rigging where I wanted it.

whee wrote:Can anyone explain to me how it is handled when a plane is sold/purchased that is in the middle of phase 1 testing. I assume no "ferry permit" is available, correct? So that leaves either flying off the remaining time of phase 1 or removing the wings and putting the plane on a trailer. Do you have to start all over with the phase 1 in the new location or can you continue where you left off?

From where to Where ? How much flying has been flown so far ?

Have looked into several amateur built and LSA on the market lately. Beware the seller who will tell you anything. One RV12 seller said it was complete but no registration. He suggested just take it home and then tell the FSDO you built it. Show them the build photos and all will be well.
My experience with the FAA is not so dreamy. Another seller could not find the airworthiness cert.
Said... just go on the internet and get a new one.
One of the RV 12 kits had Van's listed as the builder... since it was done per drawings by the builder.
No other changes are allowed, so you can't customize much once you own it.
Lots of picky little details to look into.
Ferry permits used to be a no brainer. Now, when a FSDO tells you they are backed up a year.... well, somebody is padding their weeks just waiting for retirement.

I don't really want to pay another DAR to rewrite the operating limitations but it doesn't sound like I'd have much option. Almost no time has been put on it. I'd be bringing home which is in the service area of the Salt Lake FSDO from a place outside the SLC FSDO, but within reasonable flying range once the engine has been proven.

So can I go the the original DAR and have him amend the Operating Limitations to include my area even though the plane would be going outside his local FSDO area. Is a DARs authority bound by FSDO boundaries? This might be a good option.

The DAR can approve the area you want because that is what happened in my case. He has to turn the paperwork in and the FSDO could scream up and down and reject it but you would be home by then. Mine hasnt been kicked back.

flightlogic wrote:One of the RV 12 kits had Van's listed as the builder... since it was done per drawings by the builder.
No other changes are allowed, so you can't customize much once you own it.
Lots of picky little details to look into.
Ferry permits used to be a no brainer. Now, when a FSDO tells you they are backed up a year.... well, somebody is padding their weeks just waiting for retirement.

Possibly the RV 12 was built to spec for the LSA certificate and likely does not apply to Whee's situation. I can't say for sure but from past posts I expect this plane to be traditional amateur homebuilt and not to manufacturer's LSA spec which would allow modifications.

For the FSDO saying they are backed up for a year, I had the FSDO tell me nearly the same thing. They are in Rapid City, SD and I am on the other end of the state. They only schedule a trip to this side two times a year and I couldn't get my plane ready in time so I would have had to wait another 6 months. I was left with paying a DAR who came from another FSDO and drove from nearly Des Moines Iowa. He was going to limit me to the 50 miles test area and no crossing of state lines the way that their FSDO normally does things but knowing our FSDO people I was able to have him call them and they instructed him to allow 75 miles because of our remote location so there is lattitude. He was surprised as he said in his 20 years he had never issued a test area that large. In the end both the FSDO and the DAR were great to work with but I did have to pay mileage and expenses. Talk to these people and give it a try they might surprise you.

Between the sequester and the massive inefficienty of any guvmint dept,the FAA will not be able to put 2+ 2 together...

Get the plane, fly it home and then fly off the remaining hours on the phase 1 test period.... Once the DAR submitted the paper work to the feds there is NO additional tracking of that airframe.... Kinda like running across a wolf in the back country..... Shoot, Shovel. Shut up...

Ben is right that the last action taken is to issue the temp. certificate so the pilot can fly off the hours within the test area with no further requirement. The only thing that takes the plane out of phase one is the pilot/honor system sign off that 40 hours and required tests are completed and then that entry made in the log book. No further FAA involvement, except if there is a problem and you are outside the designated test area, then you could be walking home with a big dog following. That is a whole lot of flying under the radar.

^ Of course they mean to say "their buddy Le Roy recommends that approach"...

Take a week off work and do the test flying where the plane is now, then fly it home at the end of the week? That would be one helluva week!
Or maybe you do one week and your pops does a second week, if needs be? You should be able to fly the time off easily inside a week if the owner can help with any squawks you might find, especially given the fact test flying is already halfway done?

dirtstrip wrote:. No further FAA involvement, except if there is a problem and you are outside the designated test area, then you could be walking home with a big dog following. That is a whole lot of flying under the radar.

I should have capitalized the word EXCEPT to make it louder. I don't think its worth the chance to hang your meat that low in the tree.

So does anyone have any personal experience with this exact scenario or is this all just speculation? I can't find anything in the regs that would preclude a signed off experimental with an airworthiness certificate from getting a ferry permit.They do not specify anything about phase 1 or phase 2. I looked into this issue a year or so back and was under the impression that it was not only possible but also not all that uncommon.
And as someone else pointed out, it is just a matter of log book entries to put it into phase 2.

For my phase1, the DAR that signed off my RV in Heber Ut gave me most of NE Utah, excluding SLC class b, and a large chunk of Southern Nevada, excluding LAS class b, with the restriction that I had to file a flight plan from any airport in area 1 to any airport in area 2 when traveling between the two areas. Two different FSDO's. No ferry permits needed. Your going to need a phase1 fly off area where your headed, home ?, to finish off the time. Seems like contacting the original DAR to see if he would expand the areas would be the easy place to start.
Dale

The DAR signed off on this plane ~3 years ago. Does he have any authority to remove his original approval because the plane is still in phase 1 after all that time? I'm concerned that if he is contacted he might want do another inspection and will have some method of forcing us to have one done.

Whee,
I do not have experience in this situation but EAA is the best source.

Relevant Q&A from EAA newsletter.
http://www.595.eaachapter.org/documents ... 202012.pdf

EAA: Phase one testing expires twelve months from date of issue or you must have it reinspected.
http://www.sportair.com/articles/Rules% ... lding.html

dirtstrip wrote:EAA: Phase one testing expires twelve months from date of issue or you must have it reinspected.
http://www.sportair.com/articles/Rules% ... lding.html

I've been looking into this but can't find any referance to support this. In fact the only thing I have seen is that the Airworthiness certificate should say "unlimited" meaning it is good forever and that both the Phase 1 and Phase 2 operating limitations are listed with the Cert. That would make me think the Cert in good forever regardless of the plane being in Phase 1 or 2.