I've been fighting gear issues since we bought this plane. The gear on our 1955 is aligned and tracks well. We are experiencing significant "crow hopping" anytime the plane is light and there's not much weight on the gear. Takeoff, landing, two-point, three-point....doesn't matter. If I wheel land it and it starts crow hopping, I will push the yoke forward, reduce the angle of attack which puts more weight on the gear, and it will stop crow hopping. On a three point we just have to ride it out until the plane slows down and puts more weight on the gear.

I'm at a loss and can only assume the gear is "sprung". Has anyone experienced this crow hopping in a 180 and how did you fix it? If anyone has had their gear diagnosed as "sprung" then what were the symptoms?

Beegles is out of ideas except to swap the gear.

Thanks for the help.

Try, with full flaps, to land as slow as possible. If you intend to wheel land, slow almost to full stall touchdown first and then level the fuselage to wheel it on. The airplane flies again if it has enough airspeed to fly again. Are you slowing enough, with full flaps, to get a definite mush or sink? That is necessary to engage the throttle as the descent control. The longer throttle can be used as the descent control, before closing the throttle, the closer airspeed wise you are to a solution to the bounce.

Ace007 wrote: anytime the plane is light and there's not much weight on the gear. Takeoff, landing, two-point, three-point....doesn't matter. If I wheel land it and it starts crow hopping,

contactflying wrote:Try, with full flaps, to land as slow as possible.

If its happening on take off as well it not a landing speed issue

I don't think there is anything wrong with your gear. We had a 55 180 that would do the same-thing, many tailwheel planes will. On wheel landing flare until wheels touch then pin it with forward pressure. Three point hold it off wheels one foot above ground let plane stall control wheel all the way back, DO NOT relax back pressure or tail will come up and on stall wing which starts crow hop. Full control wheel back also reduce's chance of ground loop.

Never heard the term crow hop but do you mean the gear is trying to skinny up and then something has to give and it spreads just to do it again? If so, sounds like alignment to me.

Our 180 couldn’t *quite* get to a 3- point with only one or two people - CG was right at the forward limit. Even with full nose up trim and the yoke against the stop, the mains would touch with the tailwheel a couple of inches in the air. In this condition, most taildraggers will begin those small hops 90% of the time, and the normal fix of holding the yoke back against the stop just doesn’t work until enough energy has been depleted. Not really fun.

As mentioned above, unloading it into a tail low wheel landing will work, but the timing is important.

The guaranteed fix for us? 25lbs of weight in back. Very common with 180s.

Another possible cause is not enough up elevator. Easy to check against the TCDS with a digital level, though ours was in spec.

Our 185 easily lands tailwheel first if desired, but its empty CG is quite a bit further aft than our 180 was.

If comfortable with slow enough to use power all the way to touchdown, power increases pitch attitude. This requires deceleration with power on short final or going longer as in soft field.

Ive owned 3 1950’s 180’s. None of them exhibited unruly ground handling in any configuration intended or otherwise. Beegle doesn’t know everything about Cessnas, that I promise you. Go find an old mechanic to put it on greased plates and line it up by the book.

Did I sound like MTV there? I’m trying. Hahahahaha.

gbflyer wrote:Ive owned 3 1950’s 180’s. None of them exhibited unruly ground handling in any configuration intended or otherwise. Beegle doesn’t know everything about Cessnas, that I promise you. Go find an old mechanic to put it on greased plates and line it up by the book.

Did I sound like MTV there? I’m trying. Hahahahaha.

^^This^^

Totally sounded like a slow it down issue, right up to the point you said it happens on TO. I'm wagering you will be in to it for a few axle shims and life will be good.

Take care, Rob

When I started flying my 180, I put a GoPro on the tail, underneath and facing forward. It provided a wealth of info about what I was doing and what the plane was doing. One of the surprises was that the gear appeared to toe in a bit when more weight was on it. I doubt that has anything to do with your crow hopping but the camera might help figure it out anyway.

My '54 tracks like it's on rails. Same on the 8.00s or the Bushwheels. GBFlyer is spot on.

I'm with the guys saying its an alignment issue. If its crow hopping its most likely toed in.

Just for redundancy sake: Put it on grease plates......there's no way you can honestly say the gear is aligned without putting it on grease plates.

MTV

All,

I flew the plane yesterday. I've owned a '54 180 and currently own a '73 185. This plane is definitely different than my 180. Plane in question has been on grease plates at Beegles twice. I would be quite surprised if its' not aligned properly. As a side note it did take Beegles two attempts to get the alignment correct. I think it was toed in before but not 100% sure. The owner can chime in and correct me.

All that being said if the alignment is correct now and the plane crow hops; which I will 100% verify then how does one test, verify etc. that the gear has been sprung?

We would really like to know what to do next. This particular 180 is a dream to fly once airborne. She flies as straight as one can imagine. On the ground it taxis straight and very docile until the gear gets "light". On takeoff as best I can recall about 50 knots with a lightish load. Skipped a bunch. Same on landing, Yes Contact, fast paced walk approach, slow as possible. Wheel landing, Tail low and slow. I did not dump the flaps and raised the tail a bit and she started skipping. More weight on the wheels the less she skipped. Winds essentially calm. Once the flaps were dumped skipping stopped. She needs weight on the mains to not skip. All verified.

So my question to the brothers on the forum=is this another non alignment or something else. I will 100% verify its not pilot technique.

Yes we have tried putting more weight in the tail. No success.

We just want to get the plane to "180 status quo" so its predictable and repeatable.

Thank you for your insight.

MW

Are they doing the grease plates at GW like called put in the manual? Or doing it empty? Not sure that makes much of a difference. To me a sprung gear is very noticeable because its bent or soft on one leg. Very noticeable when looking at the plane. I've never seen one that is sprung and still sits normal. Is there play in the wedges causing the gear to move once light?

MW,

If crow hopping is jumping up and down on the springiness of the gear but not leaving the ground, I know of that problem with Pawnee. The Pawnee has big bungees because of the weight in the hopper when full. It lands empty however, with what is then a stiff gear. If the pilot allows the mains to touch down before leveling the fuselage to wheel land, this jumping but not leaving the ground occurs. The trick to avoid this (crow hopping?) is to level the fuselage just prior to touchdown. As with any airplane, unless slow enough to three point before we level the fuselage to wheel land it will fly again. Approaching too fast and forcing it onto the mains to wheel land also will cause this (crow hopping?) This also occurs with the instructor and student only J-5. I think the Super Cruiser (I could be wrong on name) was wide enough in back for two passengers with the stick removed and thus stronger bungees.

Probably no help, but just a thought.

Jim

A1Skinner wrote:Are they doing the grease plates at GW like called put in the manual? Or doing it empty? Not sure that makes much of a difference. To me a sprung gear is very noticeable because its bent or soft on one leg. Very noticeable when looking at the plane. I've never seen one that is sprung and still sits normal. Is there play in the wedges causing the gear to move once light?

Probably hear a loose box or wedge knocking or feel it through the floor?


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I would change the tires first before gear legs if I was convinced it had been aligned right. I know those guys have a solid gold rep on the web but I’ve seen evidence to the contrary.

gbflyer wrote:

A1Skinner wrote:Are they doing the grease plates at GW like called put in the manual? Or doing it empty? Not sure that makes much of a difference. To me a sprung gear is very noticeable because its bent or soft on one leg. Very noticeable when looking at the plane. I've never seen one that is sprung and still sits normal. Is there play in the wedges causing the gear to move once light?

Probably hear a loose box or wedge knocking or feel it through the floor?


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I agree that you should hear it if it was really loose, but if it's just loose enough it may cause the same without the clunk. Could be the tires I suppose. Weird issue for sure.

Thanks for the the thoughtful reply all.

I did fly the plane a year ago prior to the realignment and there was a definite "clunk" while taxiing and not quite as much "hopping" as I recall. The gear are not wobbling and have the PPonk mod. I guess we are just trying to avoid a big expenditure to see if the gear is either mis aligned or sprung. I think at this point the owner will have to decide moving forward to check alignment one last time or have the legs sent off or replaced.

I really appreciate everyones' thoughtful responses.

MW