I recently purchased a 1960 C182-C with a Robertson STOL, and I’m looking for some accurate performance numbers. Does anyone here have the POH Supplement they’d be willing to share?

Program Vendor wrote:I recently purchased a 1960 C182-C with a Robertson STOL, and I’m looking for some accurate performance numbers. Does anyone here have the POH Supplement they’d be willing to share?

If you didn’t receive the RSTOL Flight Manual Supplement with the plane, you need to go back to whoever sold you the plane and demand they provide it, or refund some $$.

The airplane is not considered airworthy without all Approved Flight Manual materials, and they must be aboard the airplane for flight.

Here’s the web site of the current owner of Robertson Systems: https://skyway-mro.com/robertson-stol-h ... t-systems/ They should be able to provide a Supplement.

MTV

I have a hangar neighbor with a Robertson c182. He's also on this forum but I don't know how often he checks in.

I'll check with him next time I see him

mtv wrote: If you didn’t receive the RSTOL Flight Manual Supplement with the plane, you need to go back to whoever sold you the plane and demand they provide it, or refund some $$. ....

Good luck with that!
Esp if you "demand"...

hotrod180 wrote:

mtv wrote: If you didn’t receive the RSTOL Flight Manual Supplement with the plane, you need to go back to whoever sold you the plane and demand they provide it, or refund some $$. ....

Good luck with that!
Esp if you "demand"...

The point is, the seller who sold him that airplane sold him an unairworthy airplane, IF the FM Supplement wasn't provided. That is a serious deal, and suggests polite but serious requests.

If the seller can't provide the required documents for the plane, then he/she needs to find them or an acceptable copy. That is part of selling/buying an airworthy airplane.

Frankly, it continues to amaze me how many pilots have no or little clue the difference between an "Operator's (or Owners) Handbook and an Approved Flight Manual. And, the supplemental flight manuals that often go along with modifications. And, a lot of maintenance outfits miss that as well.

I once picked up a C-185 with an RSTOL kit installed and noted that the markings on the airspeed indicator hadn't been changed, per the STC. Then I looked for the RSTOL Supplement.....none. Left the plane where it was till they could get it legal.

On a side note, I may have been ramp checked as many times as any pilot in the world.....just lucky I reckon. In any case, back then, I was earning my living with my certificates, and when that's the case, you really ought to pay attention to details. They can bite.

MTV

Thank you all for the help and insight on this. Wheels are in motion to get the needed information.

mtv wrote: The point is, the seller who sold him that airplane sold him an unairworthy airplane, IF the FM Supplement wasn't provided. That is a serious deal, and suggests polite but serious requests. If the seller can't provide the required documents for the plane, then he/she needs to find them or an acceptable copy. That is part of selling/buying an airworthy airplane. ..

My point is, that should have been nailed down before the sale of the airplane was concluded.
Due diligence, etc,
An unscrupulous seller can always just say "that AFM supplement was provided, buyer musta lost it".
Some owners are not paperwork people, or detail minded,
and unfortunately sometimes do not keep track of that stuff like they should.

FWIW I bought a 150/150TD that had been wrecked in Alaska,
then sold to the Omak salvage outfit, then rebuilt by the guy I bought it from.
Amazingly, 10 years later when I bought it, the paperwork was all complete & included.

hotrod180 wrote:

mtv wrote: The point is, the seller who sold him that airplane sold him an unairworthy airplane, IF the FM Supplement wasn't provided. That is a serious deal, and suggests polite but serious requests. If the seller can't provide the required documents for the plane, then he/she needs to find them or an acceptable copy. That is part of selling/buying an airworthy airplane. ..

My point is, that should have been nailed down before the sale of the airplane was concluded.
Due diligence, etc,
An unscrupulous seller can always just say "that AFM supplement was provided, buyer musta lost it".
Some owners are not paperwork people, or detail minded,
and unfortunately sometimes do not keep track of that stuff like they should.

FWIW I bought a 150/150TD that had been wrecked in Alaska,
then sold to the Omak salvage outfit, then rebuilt by the guy I bought it from.
Amazingly, 10 years later when I bought it, the paperwork was all complete & included.

Yes, due diligence is essential. As they say: Buyer beware. Yet another reason for a thorough pre buy inspection, but paperwork seems to be one of the areas that a lot of maintenance outfits are weak on when doing these.

But, ultimately, it’s the PIC who is responsible for ensuring the paper is proper.

If you’re not sure whether your airplane requires an AFM, look at the Type Certificate Data Sheet, under the section that applies to all models.

You may be surprised.

MTV

mtv wrote:.....If you’re not sure whether your airplane requires an AFM, look at the Type Certificate Data Sheet, under the section that applies to all models. You may be surprised. MTV

I did, and I was.
The C180 TCDS indicates an AFM is required-- but....
"this equipment must include a current Airplane Flight Manual effective S/N 18052490, 18053001 and on".
Mine is a 53 model, in the 30,000 s/n range, so (surprisingly) an AFM is apparently not required.
However, an AFM was issued with the airplane when new,
I have what looks like the original in my paperwork,
and carry a copy in the airplane along with the other required documents (ARROW).
FWIW the "operating limitations" (the O in ARROW) are not included in the owners manual or POH,
as many believe, but are actually incorporated into the AFM.

hotrod180 wrote:

mtv wrote:.....If you’re not sure whether your airplane requires an AFM, look at the Type Certificate Data Sheet, under the section that applies to all models. You may be surprised. MTV

I did, and I was.
The C180 TCDS indicates an AFM is required-- but....
"this equipment must include a current Airplane Flight Manual effective S/N 18052490, 18053001 and on".
Mine is a 53 model, in the 30,000 s/n range, so (surprisingly) an AFM is apparently not required.
However, an AFM was issued with the airplane when new,
I have what looks like the original in my paperwork,
and carry a copy in the airplane along with the other required documents (ARROW).
FWIW the "operating limitations" (the O in ARROW) are not included in the owners manual or POH,
as many believe, but are actually incorporated into the AFM.

Well, yes, partially. Operating limitations are also found in things a lot of folks tend not to think about, like instrument markings and placards, for example. The red radial on an oil temperature instrument, the white, green, yellow arcs and the red radial on your airspeed instrument are all operating limitations as well, and must be properly marked.

Placards are typically specified in the TCDS, but may also be noted in AFM.

MTV

Mike, in a previous thread on AFMs, you suggested calling Yingling, as they could provide, as Cessna’s representative, an AFM for a specific serial number. I tried that and they just wanted to sell me the generic POH. Do you or anybody else have any suggestions on how to actually obtain the AFM? For now, I just carry the generic POH, in case anybody in authority ever asks for it.

Ross

pipeliner wrote:Mike, in a previous thread on AFMs, you suggested calling Yingling, as they could provide, as Cessna’s representative, an AFM for a specific serial number. I tried that and they just wanted to sell me the generic POH. Do you or anybody else have any suggestions on how to actually obtain the AFM? For now, I just carry the generic POH, in case anybody in authority ever asks for it.

Ross

Ross,

Last I checked (which was several years back) Yingling was Cessnas parts dealer. I’d call Cessna direct if Yingling doesn’t have the AFM.

If Cessna won’t provide it, I’d document that somehow and carry in the plane. Back when I still had the 170, my AFM was literally falling apart. I called Cessna, who referred me to Yingling. The AFM they sent had a blank for serial number.....these things are supposed to be SN specific.

Like Hotrod noted, my current plane, a 1958 175, is exempt from the requirement for an AFM by serial number.

MTV

Thanks, Mike, I'll give Cessna a try.

Out of curiosity, I called Textron, Cessna Parts Division for this geographic area. The guy who answered said you'd have to talk to the "Documents Section" about an AFM, but he wasn't sure. Said he'd find out the number to call and get back to me. No soap so far.

MTV

Program Vendor wrote:I recently purchased a 1960 C182-C with a Robertson STOL, and I’m looking for some accurate performance numbers. Does anyone here have the POH Supplement they’d be willing to share?

PM me if you’re looking for a Robertson R/STOL AFM for the 182. The manual was the same for all models.

If you also need the Cessna POH, a reproduction is OK as they are not specific to the airframe for older models. Their are nice spiral bound versions available for $30 instead of Cessna for under $300. The old POH’s before they became AFM’s are rather quaint and not very useful. With all that has been learned in recent years, who still leans to peak EGT any more by the POH?