Backcountry Pilot

[rowsign offline]

As far as insurance on a 206, as of 2005 the insurance companies seemed to start requiring the IR. They insured me in 2004 as a low time (i.e. no time) 206 driver when I bought the plane; however, they all required the Instrument rating in 2005. I was warned about this requirement in advance by a fellow 206 pilot. After checking in with AOPA insurance they verified the rumor. Needless to say I suddenly got very motivated to get my IR.

I think it was more of a 6 seat deal so maybe some of the Cherokee 6 guys could chime in on this. My bird is older so I don't think it was a value issue, just a six seat problem.

Chris

[CAVU offline]

Wow. That's scary about the IR requirement for the 206. I haven't heard that. There was a long thread recently on the CPA forum 206 board about insurance rates. I don't recall anyone mentioning an IR requirement, but things change. I'll have to call my broker so I don't get caught by surprise on renewal next year.

For my part, I have honed my excuses for not having the IR over the past 18 years. It sounds like the insurance companies may make the decision for me, though. I've bought about 4 instrument flight training manuals over the years. A buddy even gave me a pair of foggles for my birthday and a COMM1 Instrument Communications tutorial CD (hint hint)!

I feel as though I will actually be more dangerous during my first 400 hours or so of instrument flying than I currently am as an 1800 hour VFR jockey. That's probably bunk, but it's my gut instinct.

So far, my insurance has been pretty typical among 206 owners--low $2,000s in premiums for $1 million with 100k/seat sublimits. I had to take 5 hours of dual at first and get a gross weight checkout. Since then, I take some dual every year when I go to Idaho, so that seems to have kept them happy. Now, where did I put those foggles?

[rowsign offline]

CAVU:

You might be okay with insurance in the 206 with 1,800 hours.

Search the CPA forums for the discusion about 6 seat IFR requirements around Sept - November in 2004. I think that is when it first came up and it was brought up there. I didn't even have 500 hours at the time so there may have been a problem for those of us with (relatively) low hours and no IR in six seaters.

If I recall correctly, a Cherokee 6 went down with the seats full and Global would not renew a lot of the six seat pilots under a certain amount of hours and IR. AIG (?) would still insure but only with IR. FWIW, my rates did not go up or down after getting the rating, but they did write the policy. It actually worked out great for me and got me moving, but it was a pain to pull it together so quickly. It was fun getting a new rating and I do use it. Here in Oregon it is nice to be able to climb up to VFR on top.

Chris

BTW I just noticed your Idaho reference. I got some instruction from Rick Rierson at Ponderosa Aero Club in Boise on my way home after buying my plane. He is really experienced in the 206 specifically. I just thought I would pass that on.

[CAVU offline]

Yes, it's especially grim when a whole plane full of people goes down, and 206s have had their share in the last couple of years. Thanks for the reminder about the CPA discussion. I'll check back for the discussion about what happened. I recall some folks saying that they took out the last 2 seats and insured it as a 4 place aircraft. I haven't had to do that, nor wanted to, but I wonder if that option will no longer be available with the insurance companies.

Thanks for passing on Ron's name. It's always good to have resources in different places. I've been flying with Lori MacNichol out of McCall since '98, and Lynne Clark before then. Although I was able to get my insurance checkout locally, I don't know anyone in the SF Bay Area who really knows 206s.

One other plus about older 206s that I didn't mention was that they generally have several hundred pounds more useful load than the new H models. If hauling capacity is important, that's another reason why trading 1/2 of the G1000 for 100% of an older 206 might be a winning solution. Just a thought from a shamelessly-biased 206 guy.

[cubchick offline]

Some background information: We got our 206 in May of 2005. My brother and I have an equal partnership. We use CS&A Aviation Inusrance based out of TN. Although my brother only had about 300 or so hours, b/c he used to own a 206, he was allowed to fly it without an Instrument License but not carry pax; which was later rewritten to allow it. But b/c I had no 206 time, I was not allowed to solo it, period, until I got my IFR. Because of certain circumstances, I did not get around to starting on my license until this past Jan. Imagine sharing a brand new, beautiful 206 with your brother and watching him fly the heck out of it while you could only do so with an instructor?!! (hence my other thread about selling out and getting a Maule, b/c my husband still cannot fly b/c he doesn't have his IFR). So once I started lessons, I got it done in 2 1/2 mos.

Anyway, aren't they requiring an Instrument License on all aircraft 300+ HP with 6+ seats? I thought it was b/c of the amount of coverage we have (5 mill. smooth, with 8K yearly premium) until I inquired further with my dad, who holds the policy. I'm somewhat surprised they were lenient on my brother b/c of his prior 206 ownership...but apparently they are going to require an IFR of him some day.

[CAVU offline]

er, I mean Rick's name, not "Ron's."

Cubchick, I understand now why the ins. co. wants you to have the instrument rating. Between the pilot hours, the higher limits of coverage, 6 seats and a high hull value, it's not surprising that the ins. co. wants to protect itself as much as possible.

I can also see why it would drive you nuts to have limits on your ability to fly your own airplane. You've got your IR now, though, right? So you can go down to the airport any time you like and blast off. You've done the hard work, so now all you have to do is get your husband rated.

If I were in your his shoes, I think I'd do whatever I had to in order to take 10 days away from work and do the PIC course. Then it'll be 2 against 3 and your brother will have trouble scheduling the plane away from the 2 of you while you go out and shoot approaches together. The airplane you've got is one outrageous traveling machine that will only prove its worth more as time goes on. I would work hard not to give it up.

my 2 cents.

CAVU

[cubchick offline]

CAVU~Yes, I got my IFR. My husband plans on getting it, but what's the hurry...he gets to sit in the co-pilot seat and fiddle with the G1000 while his woman does all the hard work.

Yeah, I understood why the insurance was so strict...at least I had the cub to play with!!!

[qmdv offline]

2 1/2 year4s ago I went to Sheble Aviation in Kingman,AZ for the 10 day course. Used there plane (172) and studied like H. Like drinking water out of a fire hose. Who knows where I would be if I had studied that hard in College.

Passed it and am glad I did it that way. The PIC where where a guy shows up and checks into a motel and flies in your plane is pretty good I here but it is more expensive and why wear out you hardware.

I also know of 210 guys that tosed out the third row of seats and insured it as a four seater.

Tim

[retired user offline]

I feel as though I will actually be more dangerous during my first 400 hours or so of instrument flying than I currently am as an 1800 hour VFR jockey. That's probably bunk, but it's my gut instinct.

Actually, I think your going to find most pilots are at their best right after getting their IR (unlike other upgrades where experience is key) My first solo approach after getting my IR was at SFO (C-T206) and I was very comfortable with it. Ceiling was only 1,000 feet or so. Staying proficient (or even current) for instrument flying is difficult. You'll find little need for all the things you practiced so hard at. Let's see now which entry should I use if I am asked to hold???

BTW, 400 hours of actual IFR can be a career for some pilots.

Mark

[Supercubber offline]

I would go over your policy with a fine tooth comb and look for specifics on instrument currency.

Very very few GA instrument pilots keep up with the flight requirements for currency. If you have an accident even in VMC and can't show flight requirements for IFR currency they may have an out for paying any claims.

[mtv offline]

Good advice there.

Also, I've been told by three different insurance carriers that they won't insure for less seats than the airplane is legal for, even in my case, where on floats I clearly couldn't legally put that many people aboard anyway.

They told me if it's legal for four seats, its going to be insured for four seats.

You may find carriers who will say otherwise, but I've not found one.

MTV

[qmdv offline]

The hardest part of of staying curant is the 30 day VOR check. We only have one VOR and it is a 50 minut flight to the nearest airport with a VOR check point.

Tim

[a64pilot offline]

The hardest part of of staying curant is the 30 day VOR check. We only have one VOR and it is a 50 minut flight to the nearest airport with a VOR check point.

Tim

I keep confusing military and civilian rules, but aren't there four different ways to check a VOR? One was if you were dual VOR equipped all you had to do was compare the two. Another was the inflight VOR check where all you did was to overfly a known point on the ground and compare the VOR needle with the known point. The third was a ground VOR check point at an airpport and I think the fourth was a VOT signal, not real common I don't think, but you could check you VOR from anywhere on the airfield.
If you are only singl VOR equipped I think you could use the known point check and not have to fly very far.

[a64pilot offline]

Throw in my 2 cents worth if you guy's don't mind. The insurance guy's give you a break if your IFR rated simply because if you are your less likely to kill yourself and others. Personally I won't fly very far without being on an IFR flight plan. I love tooling around VFR not on any kind of a flight plan as much as the next guy, but when have you heard of someone being flight violated by busting airspace, TFR etc. when on an IFR flight plan.
When you have to be somewhere on a schedule having your IFR ticket is the best way of ensuring you'll make it. Anyone that doesn't have their IFR ticket should have it as a goal if they take flying seriously, I think. It's a whole other world of flying and can be rewarding and fun too.
As an A&P I believe in having as many tools as I can. As a pilot an IFR ticket is just another tool.

[Strata Rocketeer offline]

I like the idea of having an IR, but I just can't justify the expense since I might use it once or twice a year and then only to get out from under the marine layer. The other problem I have is spending my limited fun flying funds doing currency work instead of just flying places on the weekend having fun. There's just no way I could stay IFR current without making some serious compromises.

If the weather's bad I'll just wait for it to turn, sometimes it's nice to have an excuse for not showing up to work. And if I'm on a long cross-country, which a large portion of my flying is anyways, flight following and flight watch are usually there if I need them. I'd rather scrub a flight because of bad weather than push it even if I had my IR. Personally, I think not having my instrument rating makes me a little more cautious about how I plan my flights and makes me feel a little less bulletproof.

I realize I have the luxury of flying this way because of where I live and do most of my flying. Don't like the flying because of the weather now? Wait a day and it'll usually change for the better around here.

Different strokes for different folks.

[Zzz]

Reminds me of post #39, back in the dawn of BCP.

[freestone offline]

Mike,

Some folks I know insured for less seats by removing the seatbelts which convinced the insurance company it therefore was legal for fewer seats.

[mtv offline]

Freestone,

Yep, I offered to try that one as well. I was trying to cut it down from four to three seats, because due to useful load, I couldn't carry me and two VERY petite personages, let alone three. Didn't work.

As to VOR checks, you can use one VOR unit to check against another in flight, you can use an enroute VOR checkpoint, or you can make one up, using a "prominent landmark". Read the FAR's--they are very clear on how you can verify VOR accuracy, and it's easy ANYWHERE.

MTV

[Cold Duck offline]

Strata Rocketeer,
I find that staying current is not so bad, my "Safety Pilot" is my flying buddy anyway. So, while on the way to have some fun, don the foggles, declare your properly accredited copilot as "Safety Pilot" and perform the required items while enroute. Now you don't have the requirement for 6 hours each 6 months, the regs were adjusted to require approaches, Nav Tracking and holding patterns. If you happen to have a moving map GPS like a Garmin 430 or 530, you can accomplish all of this in one weekend of normal fun travel. We typically trade places, I fly one way and he will fly the return leg. We usually get three of our approaches each with very little delay to our trip. Two weekends like this every six months if you didn't fly one real approach. I am not advocating this as being current enough for real IMC conditions, only that it is not hard to meet the regs.

I am fortunate that I stay current with actual conditions, most of the time. I get recurrent training in a couple of different Multi's to meet not only the Insurance requirements, but my own peace of mind. When doing recurrent training, we always do fun stuff like fail one engine on a low ceiling departure or something similar.

The bottom line in my book, it is better to have the knowledge and not need it than to lack the knowledge and need it. Way to many occurances of CFIT caused by inadvertant continuance of a VFR flight into IMC conditions.

[lowflybye offline]

CAVU~Yes, I got my IFR. My husband plans on getting it, but what's the hurry...he gets to sit in the co-pilot seat and fiddle with the G1000 while his woman does all the hard work.

Yeah, I understood why the insurance was so strict...at least I had the cub to play with!!!

Your situation is a little unique in that you have 6 or 8 people listed on the policy since each of you have an instructor, plus the higher limits require special markets, and you purchased a G1000 equipped C-206 brand new in 2005 when the Technically Advanced Aircraft were new to the market. Your policy will always require slightly higher training requirements than normal due to your situtaion and the limits carried. For the most part though it is true that most companies are requiring an INST rating for anything over 300 hp, retract, or greater than 4 seats.

Before you and your husband jump into the Maule make sure that he has at least 100 hours TW...I know you are there, but I do not remember his times. More important than your hours...tally up your total TW landings and submit that number to Tom when you decide to take the leap into a Maule. This will make the insurance a little easier, but we will have a hard time with the $5 Million limit on the Maule.

There is a M5-235 over at Country Air Estates that is owned by Dennis Gardisser. I do not remember if he has a CFI rating or not, but either way if you could get a few hours with him prior to purchase that would benefit you as well. If you really get serious about buying one, bring the 206 up to Nashville and we can fly mine a bit to get you some time as well.