Thinking hard about the cfi route.After reviewing the Far Aim book you can become a cfi without an instrument rating,this would be a big cost benefit.Don't know how schools and students feel about a CFI vs CFII.Any thougts?

Just having an instrument rating does not give you an automatic CFII. I think you have to have an instrument and commercial rating before you can get a CFI.

Double-I certainly makes you more valuable to them, but you generally start out teaching primarily PPL anyway until they think your worth something to them.

Second to that is the fact that you have to do your basic CFI ride before you move on to the double-I anyway. So your oral/checkride would consist of primary CFI material before demonstrating anything for the CFII. If you try to do both your are really stacking against yourself, the initial CFI is one of the hardest...and for good reason. After that the add-ons are just that, add-ons to your CFI ticket i.e. double-I, MEI, etc...

At least thats the way I understand it...Mike?

Get your CFI first. Don't load up on too much at once, you'll get fried and wonder what the Hell you got yourself into.

What I took from your question was if you could save money/time and go directly to Commercial and the CFI skipping the instrument rating for now. You can get a severely limited commercial license without an instrument rating, but you CANNOT obtain a CFI rating without prior achievement of an instrument rating. Agree with Clay in the above.

Bigdawg is correct. You must be a holder of a commercial and instrument rating to become a CFI. A CFI can teach basic instruments to private pilot students (the 3 hours of hood time). In order to teach an instrument student you must be a CFII. With that being said, many flight schools do employ instructors with just a CFI rating.

gzero,

You are describing three different things here:

Instrument rating--can be added to a private certificate, or commercial certificate. An instrument rating is not required for a Restricted Commercial certificate, but you can't carry passengers for hire at night, nor more than 50 miles from home base.

CFI--the basic instructor certificate. Requires an UNRESTRICTED Commercial certificate, in other words, you must have an Instrument rating as well as a Commercial certificate to APPLY for a CFI. As noted, this is the basic instructor rating, and the one you must acquire first. With this certificate, you can instruct primary students, some simulated instrument training, and commercial applicants.

CFII--an additional instructor certification, which can be ADDED to the CFI. This permits you to provide instrument instruction for the purpose of students completing the requirements of their instrument rating. You cannot acquire a CFII without first completing the CFI.

Each certificate is limited to category and class as well, so your CFI might be for Airplane, Single Engine, etc.

MTV

Thanks for the quick feedback,and clarification on the instrument rating.

gzero.

I thought that an instrument rating was now required before one can get a commercial pilot ticket. Without a commercial ticket you could not get paid for services rendered as an instructor. I guess there is some kind of local/VFR commercial? But understand that it is of little value. Too lazy to look into the regs.

And yes....a CFII is a seperate rating, even if one has a commercial, instrument rating and CFI. Frankly a primary student could care less if you have a CFII or not.

In the old days a pilot didn't need an instrument rating for commercial flight. I flew and was paid for many hours of commercial flight before ever having an instrument rating. I got my CFI before my instrument ticket only adding the instrument a year later. It was easier because a guy could earn money as an instructor, fly pipeline patrol, scenic flights, VFR charter flights, etc. which would help raise the cash for that instrument and multi-engine rating down the road. Sort of an "earn as you go process." Of course this was in the late 1960s'.

A lot different back then. A CFI could instruct in any airplane in which they were rated to fly. Tailwheel, multi-engine, complex , high performance airplanes. No CFI demonstration of competency in each catagory was required. A CFI was a CFI......period. My CFI is still grandfathered back to 1968 standards and priviledges.

Good luck with your decision.

Bob

Man i wish i couldof learned to fly when a lot of you guys did, back when there was a little more freedom. Guess i better enjoy what i have now cause who knows how bad it will be in another 30 yrs or so.

BTW I believe that you can get a sport pilot instructor ticket right off your private or for that matter right off your sport pilot license- no instrument of commercial required. But on the down side I'm not sure if that means you can not do flight instruction for pay, due to the lack of a commercial license. And of course a SP-instructor can onlyu give instruction in an LSA-compliant aircraft. I'm not too sure on whether a SP-instructor can sign off the required flight reviews (aka BFR's) for anyone other than sport pilots. That whole LSA-sport pilot arena is sort of a grey area- I guess if you delved into the FAR's enough you could cipher it out, but it might take some doing.

Eric

z3,

Not much has changed since 1968 with regard to Commercial requiring an instrument or flight instructing.

You can still get a restricted commercial certificate. With that, you cannot carry passengers at night or fly beyond 50 nm of base with passengers. So, crop dusters don't need an instrument. Air tour pilots who don't fly more than 50 miles don't need an instrument, pipeline patrol doesn't require an instrument IF you don't carry passengers, and most don't.

I believe the change in instrument for a CFI came about when the FAA changed the training regs regarding instrument training for PPL.

Hotrod,

There are no grey areas when it comes to LSA. The regs are pretty clear. You are right about adding an instructor certificate to an LSA PPL. That's cause there is no Commercial LSA certificate. But, as you noted, an LSA instructor is ONLY an LSA instructor. They cannot instruct, even a flight review, in a non LSA aircraft.

EAA has some really good explanations of the LSA rules on their web site.

MTV

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
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Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:41 am

z3,

Not much has changed since 1968 with regard to Commercial requiring an instrument or flight instructing.

You can still get a restricted commercial certificate. With that, you cannot carry passengers at night or fly beyond 50 nm of base with passengers. So, crop dusters don't need an instrument. Air tour pilots who don't fly more than 50 miles don't need an instrument, pipeline patrol doesn't require an instrument IF you don't carry passengers, and most don't.


**************


MTV,

I'd say the changes are significant....

.....in "my era" one could fly anywhere anytime, day, night, passengers or not, VFR with a commercial ticket. No distance limit. The commercial was not "RESTRICTED." I had an older aquaintence who, for many years, flew as a corporate copilot on DC-3's with only a commercial/multi-engine ticket. He never did obtain an instrument rating.

I flew Twin Beeches and Turbo-prop Beeches, Baron's, C-310's, C-421's. C-337s' and every manner of single engine airplanes on mail runs and charter flights. All without an instrument rating... VFR flights only.....and was paid every week. Try that with a VFR-"restricted commercial" today.

The most important difference, as I see it, was the ability to work as a flight instructor.....WITHOUT AN INSTRUMENT RATING..... as few youngsters fell into the same opportunities as did I. That way young flight instructors could earn some money to pay for future ratings and pay the rent in the mean time. Most guys would add the multi-engine rating to their commercial and CFI before ever getting the instrument. As a result they could build some multi time as instructors or VFR charter pilots. The instrument ticket was expensive to obtain and rather useless for youngsters in that era. Few employers and insurance companies were going to turn a low time PIC loose with an airplane in instrument conditions. VFR commercial pilots, with a multi-engine and CFI, was the most common method of progression for young airmen among my contemporaries.

Things are so different today. Kids go out with 500 hours total and get a job as a copilot on regional jets. When I got my first job flying copilot on a corporate jet in 1970....the insurance company required 3,000 hours minimum, including multi-engine turbine/turbo-prop experience. My airline... new hire class ....averaged 3,500 hours, including lots of turbo-prop/jet and heavy multi-engine time.

Now there is even international discussion of training pilots in simulators and with only a few hours(40) of light airplane experience.....placing them in the right seat of B-737s and Airbus 320s, with major airlines!! Even the U.S. Air Transport Assn. supports the notion!

Guess things change in nearly half a century huh?

Bob

I came through the military route, so my first FAA ticket was Commercial / Instrument, but rotorcraft. Getting my airplane ticket, my first checkride was Limited Commercial. The write up was so long it continued on a second copy of the temp ticket. When I took my instrument ride the check pilot informed me that he expected me to display Commercial knowledge and proficiency as I was a Commercial pilot, so I got a more difficult ride than I would have if I had been a private pilot.
Right or wrong, he (rightfully so in my opinion) held me to higher standards than he would have a private pilot. So if you want a more difficult instrument checkride, take it as a Commercial Pilot.

I hadn't thought of the Commercial as a crop duster and no night flight and 50 miles. If I remember correctly it only applies to carrying passengers, not flights for hire? So you could for example fly bank checks or cargo from one location to another more than 50 miles apart as long as you didn't carry passengers?

mtv wrote: ..........There are no grey areas when it comes to LSA. The regs are pretty clear. ....EAA has some really good explanations of the LSA rules on their web site.

A grey area I was referring to was the legality of giving flight instruction for compensation with a LS-Instructor ticket. Seems silly to have an FAA instructor license or rating with which you can only give instruction for free.
I just read through FAR Part 61 subpart K "flight instructors with a sport pilot rating"- 61.401 ->61.431. Can't find where they specifically allow or don't allow flight instructio for compensation.

Eric

hotrod,

Compensation is permitted for LSA instructors.

a64,

Yes, you are correct. A lot of ag pilots around here don't have an instrument rating. They fly spray planes from here to Louisiana, Texas, Arizona, etc.

At least theoretically, yes you could carry packages VFR only, of course, for hire, pretty much anywhere.

BUT, as I've noted before, the big regulator in this industry isn't the FAA, it's the insurance industry. Try getting hired to carry packages vfr only with a restricted commercial.

z3,

Now that you describe the differences, you are correct. I learned to fly in 1969, but didn't complete commercial/instrument till ~75, and did the instrument, then commercial, cause the guys I was going to work for required both.

You're right about 300 hour pilots being hired by the commuters, but ask their salary, and their prospects for advancement....Oh, and by the way, with the downsizing that's going on in the industry right now, I doubt anyone will be hiring 300 hour first officers in the next couple years.

And, hey, the regulations may have changed a little, but consider the changes in the avionics, airspace, etc, etc that we have to deal with now, compared to 1970, say.....

MTV

z3skybolt wrote:Now there is even international discussion of training pilots in simulators and with only a few hours(40) of light airplane experience.....placing them in the right seat of B-737s and Airbus 320s, with major airlines!! Even the U.S. Air Transport Assn. supports the notion!

It goes beyond discussion. Look at what they are doing in India and other parts of the world. My last airline had several guys in my new hire class with 250 hours, most of that being in a sim. Like mentioned above, regionals won't be hiring those type of pilots anytime soon. In fact, I would imagine that a lot of them are now back in their instructing jobs. I've seen locally that new CFIs are having a hard time finding openings due to this. Plus not as many people are willing to shell out what FBOs are charging to learn to fly with the economy the way it is.

mtv wrote:......Compensation is permitted for LSA instructors.....

Where is this information found? I would think that a commercial is required to fly for hire, instructionally or otherwise.

Eric

Check EAA's website. Lots of info there. There is NO Commercial certificate for LSA, so how would you get a commercial to be an LSA instructor?

Take a look at the FAA's library site on LSA, see subpart K: http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/te ... 1.2.11.1.8

Lots of questions and answers there.

MTV

mtv wrote:... There is NO Commercial certificate for LSA, so how would you get a commercial to be an LSA instructor? .......

I didn't ask about a commercial, I asked about giving instruction for hire. Subpart K doesn't list giving instruction *for hire* as a privilege of the sport pilot instructor certificate-- just sez giving instruction. That's what I mean about grey area-- in the past, a commercial license was required to be paid for flying. Period. as far as I can see, it still is-- nothing I've read addresses a change to that requirement. So if you have a sport pilot instructor ticket, you can give all the instruction you want.... for free.
One thing I did just find on the EAA site is that at Sun'n'Fun last year, the FAA announced that the sport pilot instructor section of subpart K would be removed, and "sport pilot instructor would be on regulatory par with all other ratings available under the previous (subpart H) flight instructor regulations." No sign of that change on the FAR link you posted.

Eric