Hey everyone. What do you make of this? Recently Foreflight changed over to the FAA provided digital sectionals. Other sites, like vfrmap.com and Skyvector have as well. A couple of days ago I was looking at them and noticed that the blue shading which denotes the floor of Class E extending down to 1200' AGL is now gone across most of the country. Also gone is the staggered lines that denoted the nonstandard floors of Class E. A good example of this used to be just east of SLC over the Uintah Range. I emailed Foreflight and this is the response that they got from the FAA. By "state", they are referring to the AZ and UT screen shots that I sent them.

"The floor of the class E was changed across the state and the chart is
correct as published. (Coincidently, we have already researched this for
others, it definitely looks like a problem, but I'm told it is good.)
Thanks for inquiring about it."

So, with these gone, it would seem that areas where Class G would have ended, and Class E would have started at 1200 AGL, now would have Class G extending up to 14,500' MSL or 18,000' MSL. That's a big redistribution of airspace. What am I missing here?

I see the Class Echo floors all in the normal places up here.

First thing I'd suggest is that they EXPANDED the areas with a floor at 1200 feet. There are some charts I've seen where there is NO Class G to 14,500 anywhere on the chart.....in other words, nowhere on that chart is there a direct indication via symbology that the floor of Echo airspace is 1200, even though it is. It just covers such a large area it's hard to find the symbol.

Take a careful look around the area in question, working outward, and I'll bet you'll find that blue shaded line.

MTV

There are two long, skinny strips of fuzzy blue lines down by Lake Powell - I think the class G above 1,200 agl disappeared and the Class E expanded. Lame. If you can't have G in the un-inhabited deserts of Utah, it won't last long anywhere else either.

I don't have much to add about the airspace details but I dig the new sharper raster charts vs the old scans.

I did a cursory look at the US and the only place I'm see the blue shading is in northern Idaho, western Montana, and eastern Washington. Although they seem to end mid stream. Like one area was updated and the other wasn't. Weird.

The staggered lines showing nonstandard Class E floors are in that area as well, and then a few places in AZ, CA, WA, ID, and MT.

Both no longer exist in our area. I'm curious to get some official info on this.

Thanks for the heads up. Not sure I understand the pros / cons of this. So there would be more uncontrolled airspace.

29singlespeed wrote:Thanks for the heads up. Not sure I understand the pros / cons of this. So there would be more uncontrolled airspace.

That's the way I see it. The only real affect on GA pilots I see is knowing what airspace you're in so you know what cloud/vis requirements you need to be legal.

Both cases of blue shading (along airways as well as the transition areas to airports which sub sequentially have the magenta 700 transition area) are gone. I'll try to post some examples.

18-1-1. INTRODUCTION

Class E airspace consists of:

a. The airspace of the United States, including that airspace overlying the waters within 12 NM of the coast of the 48 contiguous states and Alaska, extending upward from 14,500 feet MSL up to, but not including 18,000 feet MSL, and the airspace above FL600, excluding -

1. The Alaska peninsula west of longitude 160°00'00"W.; and

2. The airspace below 1,500 feet above the surface of the earth.

b. Surface area designated for an airport. When designated as a surface area for an airport, the airspace will be configured to contain all instrument procedures to the extent practicable.

c. Airspace used for transition. Class E airspace areas extending upward from either 700 or 1,200 feet AGL used to transition to/from the terminal or en route environment.

d. En Route Domestic Areas. Class E airspace areas that extend upward from a specified altitude and provide controlled airspace in those areas where there is a requirement to provide IFR en route ATC services but the Federal airway structure is inadequate.

e. Federal Airways. The Federal airways and low altitude RNAV routes are Class E airspace areas and unless otherwise specified, extend upward from 1,200 feet to, but not including, 18,000 feet MSL. The colored airways are green, red, amber, and blue.  The VOR airways are classified as Domestic, Alaskan, and Hawaiian.

They just did away with the class G to 14,500 that covered the entire big bend region of TX, supposedly for new instrument approach to KPRS. Considering the massive size of the reduction for one little instrument approach that didnt make sense to me. I am not an instrument pilot however but if it didnt interfere with our two bigger local airports that were right on the edge well??? With the big drone push I assumed it had something to do with that, now it's just a skinny strip along the eastern portion of the river.

Grassstrippilot wrote:Hey everyone. What do you make of this? Recently Foreflight changed over to the FAA provided digital sectionals. Other sites, like vfrmap.com and Skyvector have as well. A couple of days ago I was looking at them and noticed that the blue shading which denotes the floor of Class E extending down to 1200' AGL is now gone across most of the country.
So, with these gone, it would seem that areas where Class G would have ended, and Class E would have started at 1200 AGL, now would have Class G extending up to 14,500' MSL or 18,000' MSL. That's a big redistribution of airspace. What am I missing here?

NO. Exactly the opposite is true. Now, virtually all that area you describe has class Echo airspace with a floor of 1200 agl.

You have to look around on the chart and find the nearest one of those blue fuzzy lines, then look at which side is the "hard" side, and which side is the "fuzzy" side. If you are ANYWHERE on the fuzzy side of that line, and there's no intervening airspace that would change the general floor, then you're in class Echo with a floor at 1200 feet.

So, in your case, scroll south of you to Page, AZ. Look just to the west of Page......there's a thin slice of that blue line there, oriented NW/SE and the HARD side of that line is inside that small slice, meaning that the area inside that line has class Echo airspace with a floor of 14,500 feet. Everything outside that line is class Echo with a floor at 1200 agl.

If that's not what used to be, then the FAA changed the airspace on you.

MTV

It is the nature of governmental bureaucracies to increase,not decrease, their control of airspace and anything else. Increased control means more jobs and bigger budgets. At the same time, they avoid areas where they are not well informed. Until GPS transponders come in, they cannot see low except with the big radar domed C-130s and 707s that have look down radar. They can see you anywhere in a TFR. Other than that, staying low is the only way to stay uncontrolled. Flying millions of miles on pipelines, I only encountered controlled airspace in Class D and irritating Class C. Class B and E didn't exist because I never went up there.

When flying in built up areas, we are most legally safe IFR. Second most legally safe is low. You young guys will see GPS transponders, so Big Brother will own you. Wait, they have an off switch too.

mtv wrote:

Grassstrippilot wrote:Hey everyone. What do you make of this? Recently Foreflight changed over to the FAA provided digital sectionals. Other sites, like vfrmap.com and Skyvector have as well. A couple of days ago I was looking at them and noticed that the blue shading which denotes the floor of Class E extending down to 1200' AGL is now gone across most of the country.
So, with these gone, it would seem that areas where Class G would have ended, and Class E would have started at 1200 AGL, now would have Class G extending up to 14,500' MSL or 18,000' MSL. That's a big redistribution of airspace. What am I missing here?

NO. Exactly the opposite is true. Now, virtually all that area you describe has class Echo airspace with a floor of 1200 agl.

You have to look around on the chart and find the nearest one of those blue fuzzy lines, then look at which side is the "hard" side, and which side is the "fuzzy" side. If you are ANYWHERE on the fuzzy side of that line, and there's no intervening airspace that would change the general floor, then you're in class Echo with a floor at 1200 feet.

So, in your case, scroll south of you to Page, AZ. Look just to the west of Page......there's a thin slice of that blue line there, oriented NW/SE and the HARD side of that line is inside that small slice, meaning that the area inside that line has class Echo airspace with a floor of 14,500 feet. Everything outside that line is class Echo with a floor at 1200 agl.

If that's not what used to be, then the FAA changed the airspace on you.

MTV

I understand the fuzzy vs solid side and what it denotes. I looked at the geographic area of the SLC sectional and there isn't a stitch of blue shading there anymore. So, looking at the snap shot of the new charts below, if I'm holding a current paper version of the chart with no blue shading and I'm on the 310 radial, 12 nm from MTU at 8,000 ft (2,000 AGL), how am I to know what airspace I'm in? It seems asinine (guess it is the government) to have to reference a sliver of blue shading that could be hundreds of miles away. If this is the trend and all blue shading is removed, then what denotes the lower starting point of 1,200 AGL for Class E? You can see on the shot of the Sun Valley Idaho screen shot that no blue shading is on the SLC sectional but it still is on the Great Falls sectional. I took it from the fed's response that the trend is for the blue shading to disappear in totality.

Area east of SLC prior to change. Lower right hand corner shows The Vernal area and MTU VOR and the blue shading showing the floor of E down to 1,200 AGL at the point referenced above.



The new FAA chart of the same area.



The break between the SLC and Great Falls sectionals on the new FAA charts.

Hey, I didn't say or even suggest that it made sense.

But, I hate to break this to you, but there have been similar instances before on other charts.

But, the fact is, all that area you're discussing is now Echo airspace with a floor at 1200 feet.

One would expect that the FAA would at least make some sort of effort to let us know, but of course, all they have to say is that we all have current charts, don't we?

A number of years ago, they plunked down a magenta fuzzy line around a bush airport I regularly visited. I assumed that they were about to publish a GPS approach to that airport. Nope, and, ten years later, there's still no GPS approach to that airport, but the airspace is Echo with a floor at 700 feet.

Go figure,

MTV

Airspace? WTF is that?

Gump

Late to the party here (old thread) but I think the below says there should have been some meetings. I don't recall any postings, but maybe I missed them. I would have commented against it. Other than the FAA, the only pilots benefiting by the expansion of E would be the non airway IFR fliers (GPS direct).

From ORDER JO 7400.2J
2−6−4. OTHER AIRSPACE ACTIONS
a. Every effort must be made to notify all aviation organizations and/or persons that may be affected by, or interested in, the planned action. The meeting notice must explain that the purpose of the meeting is to solicit aeronautical comments on the proposal’s effect on the planned action.
b. The notice must describe the planned action in sufficient detail, including charts if necessary, to enable interested persons to prepare comments prior to the meeting. Notice of the meeting should be distributed at least 30 days prior to the meeting date.
c. Regional/service area offices are also encour- aged to make use of electronic media, local newspapers, radio, and television to supplement the dissemination of notices and information.

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/AIR.pdf

We've got the magenta shading around the entire Puget Sound area-- class G 700 AGL & below, class E above. Class G minimums are 1 mile viz and clear of clouds.