Hi guys,
I dont have any aircraft building experience but I am considering starting a build project in my spare time. It would need to be something tail wheel, light, two place, and good STOL performance obviously. The S-21, KitFox 7, Patrol, or even Carbon Cub are all amazing airplanes (CC being a lot more $$). What would you guys recommend? I'm drawn to the S-21 with Titan because of it seems like an easier build and still has great performance numbers. If I went for the Patrol or CC do I need some serious experience to complete these kits? I'd hate to get in over my head and add to the statistic of pilots who have started kits only to never finish them. I would appreciate your advice. Thank you!

Observation from someone who began building a Patrol, and wound up selling the kit to purchase a flying RANS S-6...

I wish that I had spent more time looking at the support information that comes with these various kits BEFORE falling in love with the finished airplane. I should have spent more time investigating the build manuals and talking candidly with people who were actively building those aircraft to better understand what was involved. I'd helped a couple of people with their RV kits and one BD-4, and thought I had a clue what I was getting into... I did not.

Both the RANS and CC kits are known for high-quality kits that have pretty much everything you're going to need to build the plane. They also have excellent build instructions that are pretty much "step by step" and guide you through 99% of the build process, with their support teams and online community filling in the other 1%. If you follow their process, you'll wind up with a flying airplane with minimal drama.

The Kitfox is more of a "semi-complete" kit and you'll find yourself needing to purchase a lot more "extras" to complete the airplane. Thus, whereas the kit appears to be less expensive than the RANS kit for instance, it will wind up costing about the same because of those "extras". It is also an excellent quality kit with good build instructions that have been fine-tuned over many years. Again, the build manuals will provide 99% of what you need, and the factory support and builder communities can handle the rest.

The Bearhawk factory has a completely different build philosophy. The "Quick Build" kit itself is of extremely high quality (the fuselage welds are little works of art), but it is nowhere near as complete as those other kits. It also does not offer much documentation for the builder... It will take significantly longer to build a Patrol because you'll be spending a LOT more time studying the plans and talking to other builders about how to interpret the plans and then actually build that assembly. There is no "build manual" or "step-by-step" instructions for how to turn your kit into an airplane.

It is much more of a "plans-built" kit than the others. As such, you have many options that you – the builder –must decide for yourself. You will need to source a significant number of components that are not included with the kit. That includes things like wheels, tires, brakes, tail wires, seat belts, ALL of the hardware, covering materials, and a lot more... And while the factory provides a list of "basic hardware" that covers many of the "odd" or "hard to identify" items (right size pulleys, turnbuckles, etc.), and has a deal with Wicks to provide a "hardware kit" for their airplanes at a good discount, it is absolutely NOT a comprehensive kit that includes everything you'll need. Things like nutplates are not necessarily included in sufficient quantities to complete the build. I found myself ordering something from Wicks, Aircraft Spruce, or one of the other suppliers at least once a month, and often having to halt progress while I waited for the hardware to arrive.

My biggest surprise when I started my Patrol build was how little (perhaps "nonexistent" would be a better description) documentation came with the kit about the build process itself. The plans are excellent (old school, hand drawn to scale – no CAD here) and there is a small booklet with some illustrations and guidance about some key steps you'll be doing along the way (pictures of how the seats install, etc.). But there is not even a "checklist" to follow to turn your kit into an airplane, such as the other vendors provide. For a first-time builder, that was intimidating, to say the least. I had wrongly assumed there would be more "documentation" with the kit – my fault for assuming it would be there...

That is mitigated somewhat by the existence of the Bearhawk Forums website. There are some truly awesome and helpful people on it, including the owner of the kit factory, who is amazingly helpful in answering questions. There's one guy on the forums who has scratch-built not only a 4-place, but also a Patrol AND an LSA – the latter in about 18 months! Within the forums, there is an ongoing effort to document all of the steps that go into completing the plane, and to document any dependencies on other steps, so you'll know not to proceed beyond that point before doing the 'other' thing. This is in the form of a "mind map" that is accessible to the builder community, and is slowly becoming a truly useful tool. It's crowd-sourced, so subject to all that entails.

In the end, my decision to sell the Patrol kit was not because I became disenchanted with the Patrol as an airplane. I would still LOVE to own one. And it was not because I was having trouble figuring out the build process and getting things accomplished – I did, in fact, have those issues, but the forums helped resolve most of those, and the kit manufacturer's support answered the rest of them. In the end, my build process was brought down by health issues and the desire to be flying while I still could. I don't regret the time I spent on the Patrol, nor the investment of $$, time, and energy. I learned a lot, and most of the time enjoyed the process.

But had I realized how challenging the build would be for me, and how long it was actually going to take (my best guess is close to 3000 hours for the "quick build" kit), I might have chosen to build either a RANS S-20 (the S-21 wasn't available at the time) or a RANS S-7, depending on whether I wanted side-by-side or tandem seating. Given what I now know, I believe I could have completed either of those planes in the 3-years (and over 1250 hours) I spend building the Patrol to the "almost complete fuselage" stage...

Good luck!

What a great informative response! Thanks JP

Kurt

I don't need the answer to this question, but how much are you able to spend? Also, how much do you look forward to the building process?

Some people might critique your aircraft choices but your mission statement appears similar to mine: Two butts and some bags, short field capable, cruise at 100-ish.

If you've got stacks of cash then the Carbon Cub folks are ready to meet you. My understanding is they have a quick build program where you show up at the factory and they hold your hand and guide you very carefully through various processes to check the boxes off on the 51% rule. All the tools and equipment are there, plenty of help to keep you from screwing up and no waiting for the UPS guy.

I bought a partially completed Kitfox project last April. Mine is a series 5 but you have to know what you're looking at to tell it from a current series 7. Demand for new kits is unhinged thanks to the popularity of guys like Trent Palmer, and wait time was around 18 months last time I saw. I had to undo some work from the previous builder, clear down to the basic steel tube frame.

I didn't really get deep into it until about July of this year, when I brought the fuselage home to my one car garage so I could work on it as much as possible. That was a game changer. Last night I declared the fuselage essentially ready for cover. I will trailer it to my hangar and turn my attention to building the wings up from scratch (no quick build for me).

I'm super happy with the way it is turning out. The build manual seems very vague when you first start, but after you've fabricated some parts you gain the necessary skills and suddenly the manuals seem very complete. I inquired with the factory for support a couple of times early on, only to find out that there are indeed many ways to skin a cat. Now I only contact them to provide the parts that didn't come with my project, or weren't good enough for me.

For example I have met a guy semi local to me who is also building from an old project, and there is a guy at my airport who has a completed series 7 he is flying. If you talked to us separately about what tools we used and our method for solving the puzzles of building you would think we're all working on completely different airplanes.

I have enjoyed the building process way more than I thought I would. Thankfully I still have my Citabria to fly but once my wings are framed up and I start the covering process the hangar will be too crowded and the Citabria will have to be sold. That should only leave me a few months between selling it and my first engine start.

Escaping the certified world has been awesome. I'll be covering with Oratex, my avionics choices are wide open and I don't need permission from the king to choose different tires. I will be installing a Verner 7 cylinder radial, scheduled to arrive in July (I'll be ready for it immediately). If you had told me five years ago that I would be ordering my engine from the Czech Republic and my prop from Ukraine I would have laughed, but here I am confident in both decisions.

I don't have any comments on the Bearhawk line, but plenty of others like JP256 have you covered. I have always thought the Rans designs were great. Had I ordered a brand new kit my short list would have been the Rans S20 vs the Kitfox 7.

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond. This is a ton of information and really helps. I couldnt do the Patrol, for sure.

I did see the CC program but that isnt for me. Im just closing a deal on a 182 and plan the fly the hell out of that in the meantime. This build project would be to create a low and slow plane "fun" plane. 182s are fun but you guys know what I mean. It is a compromise. I can fit my girlfriend, dog, surfboards, camping gear, etc in the back and land lots of places. BUT I want to build something that Im passionate about and is truly flying at its core. That to me means, VFR, light, good vis, tail wheel, STOL, and lots of windows.

This may be a wildly unpopular opinion, but you might consider getting a job at McDonald's in your free time instead. They pay about $10 an hour, and you would probably spend less of your life getting that next airplane if you just saved your money and bought one finished.

In all seriousness, do you strongly desire to build an airplane? Not 'do you want to fly the airplane you built', but do you like to build? Are you willing to spend most of your free time for years to build it?

On top of that, building has got to be the least economical way to get an airplane. You routinely see people saying they 'invested' 100k for a 50k airplane they are selling with 200 hours on it. Why not take advantage of a newer construction airplane of the style you like at a discount, and go live your flying dream now...

Ington,

You seem to have answered your own question. A decent 182 will serve you extremely well. Have you seen what Motive/Backcountry 182 does with his plane? Do you really need any more than that? Spend money on gas and get experience.

If a you "want" to build a plane then build it. If your passion is flying then buy and fly. Me personally, I'm not talented enough to build a plane nor do I have the patience. I've been fortunate enough to have owned a number of certified planes, currently and likely last a 1973 185.

On another note, you will find this site one of the best when it comes to Backcountry stuff. Everyone here is smart, Zane does a great job moderating, and I really feel you can extract valuable feedback and info here.

Good luck. Fly safe and often!

MW

Motodive not Motive.

Damn autocorrect.

MW

ington6 wrote:I did see the CC program but that isnt for me. Im just closing a deal on a 182 and plan the fly the hell out of that in the meantime. This build project would be to create a low and slow plane "fun" plane. 182s are fun but you guys know what I mean. It is a compromise. I can fit my girlfriend, dog, surfboards, camping gear, etc in the back and land lots of places. BUT I want to build something that Im passionate about and is truly flying at its core. That to me means, VFR, light, good vis, tail wheel, STOL, and lots of windows.

Well, tell us about the airplane!!

I’m doing something very similar right now. I just bought a 182P to fly around in and tinker with while I save up enough to actually do a complete restoration on my 185. Don’t forget that the mods you will do to your 182 will help with your resale price. Welcome to the club!

Funny you say that because I’m buying Motoadve, Larry’s plane. That’s the 182. He just picked up a 170.

I just did some crane work for a home builder who is also a flier, and he informed me that he had just sold his Archer, and now had a 182. But like the last time I worked for him, he indicated that a ride in my tail dragger Rans S-7S would result in prompter payment for my crane work, or maybe I misunderstood him! Point being, it seemed that no matter what type of tri gear craft he owned, he still aspires to a taildragger, go figure.

We had a big thaw today today down in the valley, and just like clockwork, the Harley riders were out riding, thinking they were bad ass, for riding in late December! As I drove by the local watering hole and it's line of parked bikes, in my Prius....., it reminded me of the entire tail dragger V. tri gear thing, it's all good !

ington6 wrote:I did see the CC program but that isnt for me. Im just closing a deal on a 182 and plan the fly the hell out of that in the meantime. This build project would be to create a low and slow plane "fun" plane. 182s are fun but you guys know what I mean. It is a compromise. I can fit my girlfriend, dog, surfboards, camping gear, etc in the back and land lots of places. BUT I want to build something that Im passionate about and is truly flying at its core. That to me means, VFR, light, good vis, tail wheel, STOL, and lots of windows.

Seems to me that a Carbon Cub is the best choice. You did mention “good vis”.

Interesting question. I live very close to the beach in central america. Do you guys think that building a metal skinned airplane close to the beach is a bad idea? I cant imagine an ocean breeze is good for those panels while everything is being constructed and before treatment/paint. Maybe fabric would be better and dont store ALL of the pieces at my house full time? Anyone have experiene with this in coastal areas?

If I were building an all-metal airplane in a coastal area, I would definitely prime every metal part before assembly. Corrosion inside "closed" assemblies is insidious, and can be pretty hard to detect. After the plane was completed (or as major assemblies were completed), I would strongly consider using something like CorrosionX treatment, as well.

Of course, if I were building a tube-and-fabric design in that environment, I would do the same thing. Obviously the frame itself would be primed, but all of the "other" metal parts (aluminum, steel, whatever!) would also get the treatment...

Notice how I refrained from specifying any particular type of primer to use? Lots of "arguments" about different priming solutions elsewhere... (It's almost as bad as "which aviation oil is the best" or "are twins safer than singles" arguments...) Just pick the one you think is best, and will reliably use, and then use it!