In early December, ASTM holds its semi-annual meeting in Tampa Bay FL for Petroleum Products and Lubricants.

From a seminar at OSH that I attended, Lycoming was going to ask for a new ASTM spec for a 93 AKI unleaded mogas per ASTM D-4814. The Lycoming rep was sure they were going to get it. (Todd Petersen is not so sure, and he usually attends these meetings.)

The DOD is buying more and more Predator drone UAVs that have Rotax 914F engines in them. I believe that Homeland Security wants them or is using them to spy on us already. DOD will be at the ASTM meeting asking for a 91 AKI unleaded AVGAS spec. Seems somebody wants to be able to fuel up drones on public use airports. There is some speculation that this spec is 100 LL w/o lead, because it turns out that ASTM D-910 has a little noticed specification that there must be "some" TEL in ASTM D-910 fuel. (So much for the idea that there was ever going to be a 100 LL without any lead available sometime in the future.) Seems DOD decided it was easier to go to ASTM and get a whole new spec rather than monkey with D-910. Of course if DOD wants 100 LL w/o lead it will end up with a 93, or so, octane product, not 91 AKI. Would be nice if Lycoming jumped on this too. My source indicated that this would be an avgas product so branded dealers on airports would be willing to sell it ... of course they are still going to need a new tank and pump?

Wonder how long between the time ASTM has the meeting and they publish the spec and then how long before Larry Knox can order this wonder product at Lebanon State. Of course he, and others, may just drop 100 LL and order this new product only.

Some airports have an extra tank that they used to put the 80 av gas in.

Tim

That's great news.

Hate those drones though... They never use the radio in the pattern. They sit around sucking the pumps dry all day long. If a sweet little bird takes flight they all swarm after her hoping to get laid.

qmdv wrote:Some airports have an extra tank that they used to put the 80 av gas in.

Tim

I doubt this very much. If they did some of them would have put mogas in it by now. Besides most of these tanks were underground, and once abandoned usually had to be removed by order of state departments of environmental quality, or some such department. I know for a fact that this happened at Redmond, OR. I was also talking to the airport manager at Arco, ID a couple of months ago, who was desperately trying to get mogas put in an abandoned 80/87 tank. It is a city owned airport and the city council was balking at buying the first load, but he said if they didn't do it within 90 days they were going to have to dig up the old tank, which was going to cost a bunch. If you know of any airports with unused tanks I hope you will ask them to add mogas and let us know what excuse they give you for not doing so.

It will be a big moment in my life when an unmanned plane taxies up for fuel at a airport infront of my eyes......... A real buck rogers moment for sure... Can't say if I really object but the shock will drive me straight to the nearest saloon.

If the fuel suppliers support this, you will start to see this at airports. I know for a fact Air BP is already working on this.

You cannot get mogas from an aviation fuel supplier. Phillips 66, Air BP, Exxon, Shell, Avfuel, Texaco, all of them forbid their branded FBOs from carrying mogas. If you do choose to get it from an alternative source (your local jobber), you will become an unbranded FBO, receiving no product support or product liability insurance. Mogas is suicide for any FBO. When they tell you "no", they really mean "hell no". These are not "excuses", these are reasons. If you want mogas so bad, get out the 5 gallon cans and stop harassing the poor guy at the FBO.

Sorry for the rant. I am sick of people telling me how simple it is for me to get mogas on the field, when in reality they have no idea what the fuck they are talking about.

Glad to have it put so plainly bigdawg

bigdawg wrote:>... I know for a fact Air BP is already working on this.

I'm curious, Air-BP is working on what? Getting a new unleaded avgas spec through ASTM? I have heard nothing about their program. Please tell us about it or give us a link to this work.

>... Mogas is suicide for any FBO. When they tell you "no", they really mean "hell no". These are not "excuses", these are reasons.

They are excuses. All gasoline is interstate commerce and all commerce on airports is under federal jurisdiction. This is illegal restraint of trade in interstate commerce, pure and simple, but they get away with it because FBO's don't have the economic or legal where with all to fight them. I don't offer that as an excuse but as a fact of the way business is done. Kind of strange that a lot of airports east of the Rockies don't have a problem getting mogas on their airports, I visited a number of them on my trip to OSH last year. KPUW was an Exxon dealer and had mogas, in the state of Washington.

If you want mogas so bad, get out the 5 gallon cans and stop harassing the poor guy at the FBO.

I'm curious what state you live in? I am suspecting maybe Alaska, because in the lower 48 E10 is taking over every service station because of a federal RFS mandate EISA 2007 that has run amok with unintended consequences. It is getting very difficult, and in some states with mandatory E10 laws, downright impossible to "get out the 5 gallon cans" and go to a service station to self-fuel your airplane. And it doesn't do us a bit of good on X-countries, making our airplanes much less useful.

Sorry for the rant. I am sick of people telling me how simple it is for me to get mogas on the field, when in reality they have no idea what the fuck they are talking about.

Sounds like you are in the wrong business and you wish some of your customers would disappear. You will probably get what you wish for. Since I own the airplane that needs mogas and I am the customer, I think I have a right to at least ask that you carry the fuel that I need. When I can't get the fuel, I'll just quit flying and I won't buy anything from you. I don't believe that I ever told you or any other FBO that it would be easy. It sure as hell isn't easy to fuel an airplane that requires mogas today and I would love to sell my airplane and quit flying. Kind of strange that flying is one of the most expensive endeavors you can get into and a lot of FBOs could care less about whether you will be a future customer. No wonder pilot numbers are declining, I sure don't recommend it to anybody.

bigdawg wrote:
You cannot get mogas from an aviation fuel supplier. Phillips 66, Air BP, Exxon, Shell, Avfuel, Texaco, all of them forbid their branded FBOs from carrying mogas. If you do choose to get it from an alternative source (your local jobber), you will become an unbranded FBO, receiving no product support or product liability insurance. Mogas is suicide for any FBO. When they tell you "no", they really mean "hell no". These are not "excuses", these are reasons. If you want mogas so bad, get out the 5 gallon cans and stop harassing the poor guy at the FBO.

Sorry for the rant. I am sick of people telling me how simple it is for me to get mogas on the field, when in reality they have no idea what the fuck they are talking about.

I may not know what the fuck I'm talking about (I admit I don't know how
simple or hard it is to set it up), but I *have* landed at airports east
of the Rockies where they had branded AvGas as well as mogas for sale
on the field (often, both branded AvGas and Mogas were being offered by
the same FBO).

I sense that "someone" is struggling with dwindling profits from the
lack-luster sales volume of 100LL due to the exhorbitant cost and
ever-decreasing demand....

Message to FBOs: Figure out a way to supply us pilots with
reasonably-priced fuel at airports all around the country, and
watch the number of operating hours, fuel sales volume / gallons
sold and profits go up!

I think what a bunch of you are missing is in the Midwest there are still a lot of little distributors that are supplying branded fuel.
Mom and Pop may not care what you carry long as you still buy from them.

Out here in the west there are only a couple jobbers and if you want fuel you play by there rules.

If it were easy and or profitable everyone would be doing it.

We're a Phillips FBO, and are actually undergoing an inspection tomorrow
by the Oilco folks.
Most of the pilots based here can use mogas, and it probably wouldn't hurt us too badly to switch entirely over to the above-described lead free stuff.
Most of our fuel is vended out of a truck, and I don't think it'd be a terrible burden to acquire another fuel truck, as opposed to installing a whole new
storage tank.

We can start with only carrying the new stuff in one truck, and if it starts out-selling the 100LL (or the latter goes the way of the dodo), then we can clean out the storage tank and switch it over. It's aboveground, by the way.

spacer ... How I wish we had people with your attitude out here in the west!

Actually we do have one person, Larry Knox at Lebanon State airport, OR. I just wish we could clone him as airport manager at other G/A airports.

I hope you will let us know what you do.

I have started a new national effort to get states to pass laws banning ethanol blending in premium unleaded gasoline so we will continue to have a source of mogas in the face of EISA 2007. I have created a new web site to coordinate the effort, http://www.e0pc.com and as part of that effort I have applied for a Wolf Grant to support the program and one of the results of the grant is to be a guide on how people who want to help get mogas on their airports go about doing it. The guide will be published on the web site. I will be using the experiences of Larry Knox and Todd Petersen, who have both installed mogas service on airports, as a basis for the guide.

There are those of us out here who are willing to actually invest money in a mogas program but we have no idea what to do. If you tell us how you are doing it, and how it turns out, it would be a great help. There is a forum, like this one, connected with the new web site and you can leave your experiences on the forum. I would greatly appreciate it. The forum is open to all. I encourage people to become involved with a state legislative movement in your states and tell us how you are doing. We have commitments from Oregon, Idaho and Florida so far to introduce legislation to ban ethanol blending in premium unleaded gasoline.

Thanks for the insight spacer.

Yes if it were easy, everyone would be doing it. The opposite
of that is, where there is a will, there's a way....

I've been flying since 1976. Anyone who says GA traffic, number
of hours flown and number of gallons of avgas sold over the
last few decades hasn't plummeted has their head buried
in the sand.... (I'm being nice here...).

If we do nothing, Avgas will be $10 a gallon in the not-too-distant
future, and demand destruction will continue to whittle away
at GA / private flying until FBOs won't be selling 100LL to anyone
but the very rich....

At $6+/gallon, my number of flying hours per week, month & year goes
way down. Mogas is currently around $2.20/gallon where I live, and
at that price, I can almost afford to go flying every day if I want to.
More hours of flying means more maintenance on my airplane, more
oil changes, more pilot supplies, the list goes on (read that more
$$$$ poured into FBOs, business, supplies and products related to GA).

I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but even I can
recognize demand destruction when I see it (and that's what is/was
happening with $6+/gallon avgas around these parts).

I don't think the point of my rant came across that well. The only way anything other than 100LL and Jet-A will become available at FBOs is if they become available through aviation fuel suppliers. While mogas would be great, no FBO with anything to lose will trade insurance coverage for mogas. This new fuel, however, is being developed by and supported by aviation fuel suppliers, and will probably be available in an FBO near you once it is in production.

Stol wrote:It will be a big moment in my life when an unmanned plane taxies up for fuel at a airport infront of my eyes......... A real buck rogers moment for sure... Can't say if I really object but the shock will drive me straight to the nearest saloon.

Just think.......if we can fly UAV's from our computers in the den, no need for medicals, BFR's, bugs to clean from wind screens etc. Yeh...and no eight hours from bottle to throttle. Just think on your split screen you can be watching the Broncos loose and flying over Kenosha Pass viewing the aspens while sucking down a Coors Light.
Always looking on the positive side.
HC

PS: Maybe the UAV will run on E10

When I last posted, for some reason, the only response I saw was the second one from 1954C180 (hence me thinking you were calling me spacer). Sorry for any confusion, I have no idea why none of the other posts appeared.

N1593Y:
Air BP is working on a new fuel spec, somewhere in the high 90s range of octane, and unleaded. It will not replace 100ll, but be marketed parallel, and be less expensive. I have no other information on this, as it came by word of mouth from my sales rep and tech rep.

Most of the mogas at airports on the east coast is more or less "grandfathered in", being sold by FBOs who have been under the same management since the late 80s. It was ok when they were branded, so they are allowed to keep carrying it. You bring up a good point about interstate commerce, but unfortunately I don't have the $$$ to start that battle.

My FBO is in Ohio, to clear that up. We are not mandated to have 10% yet, but most of the racks have been injecting it in as a standard practice because so many are. This doesn't stop people from getting the cans out though. There are some people on my field that think it's for them to use it anyway, even though the O300 in their 1962 C172C doesn't require it and runs perfectly fine on 100ll.

I think you misunderstood my last line. I find it very helpful for my customers to come in and suggest new products, and then discuss the ups and downs of the idea. It's the customers who fly in on a 172 and begin by making snide remarks about how mogas isn't available. Then when they walk inside to pay for their 100ll, they get downright angry when I try to explain it is not a viable product under our current situation. People like this fit right into same group that lands, parks for the day, uses the courtesy car, uses the weather computer, uses the phone, doesn't purchase anything, but doesn't even bother to replace the gas they used in the car. If you put a piece of coal in the these peoples asses, you would a diamond. You have me all wrong, I care more about having you as a future customer than most FBOs, as I am a VERY small town FBO. I don't mind at all when someone uses my courtesy car without buying anything (just replace the gas you used, that's all I ask), I understand that you don't need fuel to get home and it is cheaper at your home airport. But it is when someone walks in and makes demands (not suggestions) on the way that I run my business that the line is crossed. I would rather these customers go to the larger airport across town and be someone elses problem.

1954C180:
I have only had first hand experience with Phillips66, ChevTex, and AirBP. Most of the FBOs that have mogas are either grandfathered in, or county run and don't necessarily care about liability.

How do you make a small fortune in aviation? Start with a large one. That being said, 100LL sales have been down some, but other portions of the business have picked up to make up for it, sort of a lucky break.

It will probably be a few years before the alternative is in place. Due to another lucky break (my brother calls me "Forest Gump"), I may have acquired a few above ground fuel storage tanks for free. If my scheme completely pans out, I will have mogas for sale at my airport (assuming I can find someone to sell me mogas without ethanol) by essentially setting up a second fuel farm and a second FBO in a sense. It should work because I won't be violating the BP terms, and all liability will be shifted to a company with no assets (besides a tank). I'm on your side people, and am more or less stuck between a rock and a hard place, but I'm trying.

Spacer:
What state are you in? Here in Ohio we are required to have some sort of fuel farm for every product, we can't do a truck to truck delivery without special approval of the local fire marshal and have a Hazmat team on standby.

Sounds like you're dealing with a jobber. BP doesn't have jobbers, so there is a lot less wiggle room.

BTW, were you talking about dedicating a truck to mogas or a new 100LL alternative?


Guys, I would love to sell mogas, and am actively trying to, but I guess my point is that it is not as easy as meets the eye. Unless we get the suppliers to certify a mogas spec or understand there is a market for it (growing lsa market, who knows), I don't think we'll see the number of FBOs carrying mogas increase any time soon.

bigdawg wrote:N1593Y:
Air BP is working on a new fuel spec, somewhere in the high 90s range of octane, and unleaded. It will not replace 100ll, but be marketed parallel, and be less expensive. I have no other information on this, as it came by word of mouth from my sales rep and tech rep.

This sounds exactly like what my source from EAA headquarters told me. It will be 100 LL w/o lead which makes it about 93 MON. Seems it is easier to get a new ASTM spec than try to monkey with ASTM D-910, which is 100 LL. I'll bet your Air-BP reps know about the DOD proposal.

My FBO is in Ohio, to clear that up. We are not mandated to have 10% yet, but most of the racks have been injecting it in as a standard practice because so many are.

This is because of the unintended consequences of a new federal RFS mandate EISA 2007. The racks get a blending credit of $0.51/gallon of ethanol blended which works out to $0.051/gallon of E10. This credit helps pay for the tanks and injectors, but the intent of the law is to spread E85 across the land and give the car manufacturers corporate welfare to build a lot more flex-fuel vehicles. The terminals want to be ready and there are some other aspects of the law that are driving them. Unfortunately it may come back to bite the terminals because ethanol is now more expensive than gasoline.

This doesn't stop people from getting the cans out though. There are some people on my field that think it's for them to use it anyway, even though the O300 in their 1962 C172C doesn't require it and runs perfectly fine on 100ll.

I have a 1962 C-172C with an O300-D and it does not run "perfectly fine" on 100 LL at all. It was never designed to run on that much lead and after about 40 hrs it will stick an exhaust valve. That is why EAA and Petersen went to all of the trouble to create fuel STCs. A lot of old low compression engines do not work reliably on 100 LL, to say nothing of the increased maintenance if you are lucky enough to not have the valve problem.

> ... But it is when someone walks in and makes demands (not suggestions) on the way that I run my business that the line is crossed. I would rather these customers go to the larger airport across town and be someone elses problem.

I understand your point, agreed.

>... If my scheme completely pans out, I will have mogas for sale at my airport (assuming I can find someone to sell me mogas without ethanol) by essentially setting up a second fuel farm and a second FBO in a sense.

Now this sounds like a plan. It is what we want to do out here in Oregon, set up "second" fuel delivery companies on airports for mogas. Since ethanol is mixed at the rack, you will always be able to get ethanol free mogas, unless they go to suboctane blending, which is the scary part that we are trying to avoid by getting state laws passed to ban the blending of ethanol in all premium unleaded gasoline. (See www.e0pc.com) As an aviation vendor of mogas no state can pass a law requiring ethanol be blended into the gasoline you order and as a business on an airport you have a right to form a contract with a fuel distributor to supply you with ethanol free gasoline because it is an FAA approved aviation fuel.

It should work because I won't be violating the BP terms, and all liability will be shifted to a company with no assets (besides a tank).

This is exactly how we are looking at it.

Unless we get the suppliers to certify a mogas spec or understand there is a market for it (growing lsa market, who knows), I don't think we'll see the number of FBOs carrying mogas increase any time soon.

Unfortunately we need to increase the number of airports that sell mogas, no matter what ASTM and DOD do. The federal RFS mandate is making it impossible to get unblended gasoline at local service stations. I hope FBOs will take this into consideration as an opportunity to sell more fuel, the federal government is handing this opportunity to you on a golden platter, they are driving out your toughest competition, the local service station. Considering that 70% of the GA fleet and all of the new LSA can use mogas, it seems that the critical mass is there. If 100 LL suddenly disappears the only people who will fly are the 70% of airplanes that can use mogas while everyone scrambles around to find a 100 LL replacement, if they can. If the new fuel proposed by DOD is approved and gets into production in the next two years, and I am hopeful, FBOs would still need another tank to dispense it to the drones that are coming to every airport. You will still need your 100 LL tank for whatever replaces 100 LL.

Bigdawg, we're still looking into the details and what we can get away with. All the FBOs (at least 3 of us, including Central), use the same distributor, though we're still inspected by the brand holder.

The bigger FBO, over at Adams, tends to be a bit calcified and slow to act
on new developments (or opportunities) and I'm hoping we can steal a march on 'em when the new spec gets settled. I'm probably being a bit too hopeful on this subject, as I'm sure they're just as worried about it as we are.
Well, maybe a little less. They'll pump more Jet-A into one airplane (I know, I used to work there) than we sell in most weeks.
There's a G5 based there, so that's not hard to do.

Fortunately, most of the freeloader types head over to that airport, as they have all the high-zoot services, and most of the folks who come to us will buy fuel or at least leave a few bucks on the counter when they turn the car in.
Also, most of our overnight tiedowns usually buy at least a token amount of fuel.

All in all, we get a pretty good crowd in our little backwater airport. Makes life a whole lot better.