Sad story about two brothers:



http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765657698/NTSB-Plane-that-crashed-in-Arizona-was-flying-low.html

Devastating.

It reminds me of the words of Edward Whymper. He made the first successful climb of the Matterhorn, then watched four of his ropemates fall to their deaths on the descent.

There have been joys too great to be described in words, and there have been griefs upon which I have not dared to dwell; and with these in mind I say: Climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are nought without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste; look well to each step; and from the beginning think what may be the end.

denalipilot wrote:

There have been joys too great to be described in words, and there have been griefs upon which I have not dared to dwell; and with these in mind I say: Climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are nought without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste; look well to each step; and from the beginning think what may be the end.

Profound. Might frame that.

Yes, very sad. Ended up being the sons of a lady I know from the bank where I did business for the flying club when I was the treasurer. We talked often about her son that wanted to learn to fly. She wasn't thrilled with it, but supported him because that is what he wanted to do. A harsh reminder for new pilots, and us all, to know our limits as well as those of the plane we fly.

Sad.

I have always wondered, as an additional measure of safety to all the other things one should do while piloting, how helpful synthetic vision avionics might be. Terrain accidents like this are just so sad.

Why were they flying low? For a new low-time pilot, the regs, all his recent training all say minimum 1000' AGL unless taking off or landing.

Weather push them down? Turn around.

I really can't think of any technology that would have helped in this case. Well, perhaps FDM, providing the pilot knew there would be a review by an authority and that any low flying would be investigated.

We've had Dash 8's doing 250 knots a couple hundred feet above the desert, and big helicopters doing 150 knot at 10' above the water following a winding river. FDM took care of those. Not that as independently minded backcountry pilots we want every move scrutinized by someone looking over your shoulder, but it is a reality in the commercial world with a zero tolerance for risk.

I've driven through the Virgin River Gorge a hundred times at least. That last stretch on the southern end is a narrow, winding slot that is breathtaking in a CAR at 75-80 mph. In a C-172 flown by a 19 year-old, 100 ft above the road, I'd classify it as nearly impossible. Tragic results and my sympathies are with the family of the boys.

Rather than a technology that could have saved them, I'm thinking about a lack of technology that could have saved them. A 19 year-old with a brain full of U-Tube videos of other pilots successfully navigating other Utah canyons below the rim combined with the invincibility of youth might have led to an error in judgment. As experienced pilots we all know how few of those you can get away with. Unfortunately, the temptation is always there to violate the first commandment of aviation: Stay AWAY from the ground.

YB

There are two schools of thought on low flying. The Army teaches their pilots to do it safely. The FAA outlaws it and refuses to get involved with any real teaching of safe maneuvering flight techniques.

The FAA and pilot community have done a good job making maneuvering flight taboo in the culture. I feel for the renegades, spray, and patrol aspirants. They should not have to learn by experience.

So sad for the families of these two young boys, breaks my heart

Karmutzen wrote: "Why were they flying low? For a new low-time pilot, the regs, all his recent training all say minimum 1000' AGL unless taking off or landing."

There is no law against flying low outside of populated areas. In Class G and E airspace its 500' from people/cars/buildings etc. linear not AGL, and there is no rule for height AGL if none of the above are present. I know nothing of this area, and if there is a town, Class C airspace or something there you may well be right, but it is misleading to say that generally speaking like it is the rules everywhere. Flying low is not what killed these boys, its like saying guns kill people and not the other way around…I say this cause pointing fingers at external causes won't bring these boys back, better guidance, training, and common sense may have prevented this tragedy, if in fact there was not a mechanical failure or something we don't, and may never, know about.

Just don't drag flying low into this as the culprit when we have no idea what really happened. Armchair quarterbacking about two young boys deaths is shameful IMO. Judgement against pilots who enjoy flying low or videos of them on youtube flying canyons in the backcountry are not to blame!!! I ride motorcycles but will not try backflips or super mans because I saw that on ESPN, I surf and won't try to paddle into Mavericks because I caught a clip on FUEL TV, I'm a pilot but won't try wild aerobatics because I saw them at Oshkosh, I like cheeseburgers but won't eat 20 in a row because I saw Man Vs. Food…quit blaming people who are skilled enough to fly a certain way safely for the deaths of those who put themselves in situations they were not ready for…and I am not saying this is what happened here, I am saying we don't know what happened here and it burns my guts when people start blaming the type of flying many of us here love as being the cause for spurring others on to try something they should know better than, we are all responsible for our own actions and sometimes those actions lead to paying the ultimate price, as hard as that may be to accept in scenarios like these

Yellow belly nails it. I have a 13 year old grandson who is convinced that he can do ANYTHING he sees in You Tube videos. On his bike he is terror. In the 180 he sits with the seat back and his hands in his lap. Or with his phone, watching You Tube videos.

Great post Skalywag!

Awesome post Skalywag. Couldn't have said it any better.

Another +1 to your post Skalywag.
I'm 16 myself, but I'm not about to go out and try to land on a sandbar like I have seen some videos of BCP members doing.
Youtube may inspire some to be reckless, but I think blaming this crash only on that is a bit preemptive, with all that could have happened.

+1 Skalywag and +1 contactflying
it suck's when the ground go's up faster then the plane can. (assuming that's the case)

I wonder if they found a go pro in the wreckage.

Tim

I too have to agree with Skalywag and with contactflying. Both make good points.

It wasn't low flying which but these young men, it MAY have been our (flight training community) failure to train that young PIC in the risks and skills necessary to safely fly in this environment.

There's nothing wrong with flying low, but there ARE some serious traps out there, some of which can kill you dead.

A terrible loss, but life has few guarantees.

RIP

MTV

I don't think anyone is saying low flying alone killed them, but the mixture of 19, brand new pilot, feeling of invincibility, and probably not realizing how fast things happen down low at full throttle. I remember the unleashed sense of freedom when I was no longer bound by the confines of training. Not saying this is the case here, but influence beyond YouTube, like an instructor who doesn't set a good example or sets appropriate bounds...or who decides to demonstrate his "superior skill" could and has left the wrong example and impression on students. Bottom line is, whether it be from thrill seeking, inexperience, a video, or a bad example from someone else, he made a bad decision and it cost his family dearly.

Excellent post Skalywag!!

I wonder what was the blame for the first time a young pilot smacked a canyon 50 years ago, couldn't have been YouTube. We are going to have to quit blame shifting. These boys made a tragic mistake. We should learn from it and try to pass it along to our children and fellow pilots as an example. Teach young pilots to process for themselves the hazards around them, and apply that knowledge to their flight.Their will always be those of us that have to learn the hard way. I didn't spend 2 weeks in a hospital because I listened when told not to surf a 750 Honda, I did it because I thought I could, and after recuperating I proved to myself I could. I also fly a gravity defying, death trap of a beast because I want to be able to, even after reading about the deaths that occur. Hell I drive a death trap to work everyday, with some illegal alien trying to run over me in a water truck.

Life is a terminal disease, we will not survive. Enjoy the ride and let your loved ones know that it makes your soul happy, so that if it does take you early, you had a great ride.

wtxdragger wrote:Life is a terminal disease, we will not survive. Enjoy the ride and let your loved ones know that it makes your soul happy, so that if it does take you early, you had a great ride.

X2

Uh oh... Looks like my first post was misconstrued.

I have no problem with low flying just like I have no problem with backflips on a snowmobile. I've enjoyed the former and will probably never enjoy the latter. All these things are possible when you gather up the necessary ingredients: Skill, Experience and Judgement. What makes my heart bleed is seeing folks (and not just young kids) who, for whatever reason, decide they can short-cut the gathering of those ingredients and leap into a situation over their heads with tragic consequences.

Youtube is no villain either. It has taught me a great may things from how to use that stupid can opener from Ikea to changing the screen on my laptop. But, it is also a medium to inject a 3 minute inspiration into the mind of a young boy who can't wait to live the experience for himself. Maybe we need more avenues available for them to realize the road to their ambition. The place I flew with in Perth, West Australia had an add on course for low level maneuvering just like adding on a tailwheel endorsement.

I think the stuff that Kevin (aktahoe) does in the Sierras is an admirable service to our community: scouting out reasonable places to land in the backcountry and encouraging others to extend their skill, experience, and judgement in the company of others is the proper way to gently grow a great group of pilots. That's the kind of program that would satisfy our youth's craving for adventure while allowing some control over the leapfrogging attempts that take people too far too soon.

YB