Kind words GB, hope to see that part of the world some day. Love the Rans also. 46th season for the boss, and the first one was a champ.

Rob, you guys or any you know of using NVG's? Had a discussion with my 135 POI who was also an army rotorhead. Neither of us understand how the feds can talk safety out of one side of their mouth and make a tool like goggles so difficult and expensive out of the other side. Only difficulty with your cat skinning is I see is holding the ends from that height? My turn to say not being critical but trying to learn. I think people think we are off our rockers working in the little fields we do, but I would be absolutely scared to death trying to fly around those wind turbines. Hats off to you folks.

Oh, and we just got a met/cell tower marking bill signed here in CO. Hope that's a continuing trend everywhere!

Hey Contact, kinda late on the take but are talking about Travis Perkins that you sprayed for or with? My boss knows him well, she has known Mr. Perk all her life and he flew with her dad and father in law. She said that has to be him, he sprayed out of Fabens. His runway down here is just south of our hangar a ways. She asked me to see if you knew a pilot that flew for Mr. Perk named Hilton?

Ok ok. I'm really trying hard here to steer clear of the windmill thing.
Marty, that all sounds well and good but.... Not gonna happen. The windmill people are just like politicians. They tell you what you want to hear till they get what they want. Then. Deaf ears.
And maybe if you get the right person and give them plenty of notice, and they feel like it, they might turn it off. But I can't tell you how many times I know I'm going there about 30 minutes before I'm there.
They are extremely dangerous and a huge pain to deal with and do a good job affordably. There's several factors of flying in them that you don't even think of till you've worked em a while and learn the hard way. Little things like how a blade shadow can scare the crap out of ya!
I could go into a whole list of things sbout em and maybe I should just for those who haven't flown them and will.
The farmer will NOT get a good job from a pilot that's scared of them. And he will have to pay more. It just takes longer. And we will loose pilots to them. One of the most frustrating parts to me is flying in them in smooth windy air. It's like passing behind 747's all day. Ok. That's enough windscam rant for now.
And just for the lost in translation sensitive please know this is not directed at anyone here in anger. I'm good with people saying. Ya I know its a scam but I'm getting xx dollars to put these things on my pos plot of land I care nothing about and never have to see. If the govts gonna throw $ out the window a few us oughta catch some pennies anyway right.
I could deal with all the bs of them alot easier if they were legit and worked! We've got more natural gas than we can shake a stick at that can produce more energy than 10 million of those ugly sob's can make in a thousand years. But hey. We're saving the environment.
Ok really. I'm done. Sorry.

And Marty no, I didn't hear about that wreck. Ill have to check it out!

Dang rob. 10 gallons is gotta be fun. We don't run anywhere near that.
And I knew you weren't being critical for sure. I never realized before this forum, which is the extent of my social media experience, how much a tone of voice matters in a discussion. (; knowing a person helps. I usually read your stuff like I know how you talk. If that makes since..

Was that a -6 on that bird? I think you said before.. I really would like one of those see through tops! And a 550 with a 60!

Jason, please don't let this happen to you. This is the turbine the Lance tangled with. NTSB was going to try and figure out if the plane hit the blade or the blade tried to chop the plane as it went by.

Rob,
I was a competitor and didn't know them well. Charley Bush knew them but I don't remember if he called Mr Perkins by his first name. He was from McAllen Texas. I, in my one Pawnee or Callair, couldn't compete with them on the government contract and they didn't come up to our small valleys for the vegetables. Mr Perkins was old then, 1990s.
Jim

180Marty wrote:

The next pic is in Martys neighborhood, and is for the benifit of those that have not experienced a windmill up close.

Rob, if you make up here this summer, tell them to shut down and rotate to your liking. Should be better than dealing with a big tree or pivot then.

Marty,
I love making the trek your way and thanks for the tip! I just may try it. But as you know, most of the spraying occurs 'on the fly' so to speak, so probably not going to be a very effective tactic.

Honestly, as a pilot I try not to over think the windmills... I can't control which field has them or if I'll get one that does. If I get tasked to fly a field that has them, I just conclude that I am now taking a job that will take twice as long to spray, and has an added measure of risk involved. If the risk factor outweighs the comfort level, or profitability diminishes too much, I just have to turn the job down. Every year less and less pilots accept work with towers in it. Last year I think there were four of us flying for Jake that would still do it. Sad part is that work that was once spread evenly amongst 14-15 ships is now getting loaded up on those 4. Last year one operator called his insurance carrier and discovered that his policy would not be able to cover a tower if he destroyed it. Something most don't think of in the heat of the moment...


As an individual, there's not much for me to over think about either...

I don't think any reasonable person who has spent time manipulating a heavy unwilling airplane through a maze of these can come to the conclusion that they aren't much of a hazard. A sunday flight in a supercub through the windmills is a non event, the key here is we aren't operating something that slow and maneuverable I'm sure you'll agree that the vast majority are not nicely planted on the edge of a field, but rather planted such that makes logistical sense to the infrastructure, in other words a maze to the aerial applicator... A moving maze with the moving blossom eating up a tremendously large amount sky. You can get under them just fine, it's the turns that will get you. Remeber the Thrush that got knocked out of the sky near you a couple years ago?

I can't imagine anyone coming to the conclusion that they are not an eyesore to a skyline that everyone of us owes our fellow neighbors. The first time anyone sees them they look kinda cool. Driving through miles of them you start to realize they are a permanent scar

Nor can I imagine how some of these scars will be cleaned up after the 20 year life span Well that's not entirely true... a simple flight through the Banning pass shows exactly what is likely to become of many of these sights, there you can find miles of old abandoned windmills corroding away and further destroying the skyline



As for the accident pic, I don't know of the accident, but wonder if it happened at night? As you are aware, the beacons on these things (when they are kind enough to appease us with one) is on the tower itself. This leaves a 100' + blade to swing willy nilly into a skyline un marked. I have no idea how that is remotely legal For me, this alone makes night ag in IA an impossibility...



Take care, Rob

A few more random thoughts and I better shut up. I always thought windmills were supposed to be one of the cool things about Holland. The other day I was messing around at about 400 feet looking at some fields and when I went by a friend of mine that is right next to the Northern Natural Gas pump station, the place I never fly over, something didn't feel right. As I went by and looked back I couldn't see the tower with a blinking red light that's been there forever----it's gone. My friend didn't even know about it yet. When it comes to spraying, everybody is on a list so never get sprayed in the next hour---usually a day or two out. If you're spraying, the turbine shouldn't be producing too much juice with the reduced wind. So my thought is show the wind farm management the broken blade that the plane hit and tell them it would probably be a good idea to shut them down for a day or so before you even think the field might get sprayed. The accident plane was about ten miles south of where he was going to land and it was evening, windy, and foggy.

Meat,

I really don't get out much What I mean is I don't know a whole heck of a lot of night flyers, but then again I guess there really isn't a whole heck of a lot of night flyers.... I've probably worked with or know something in the neighborhood of 40 or so folks that spray at night. Out of that group I have never met anyone that uses or has experience with NVGs. That, in and of itself really doesn't mean much though, because night ag is kind of becoming a lost art... I don't think more than 2 or 3 people in that group are younger folks, the vast majority of these folks started night spraying long before the days of really good aircraft worthy NVGs. Consequently, they have long ago adapted other methods that work, and stood the test of time. Most of these folks don't even have a radio, getting them to try out NVG's is probably an exercise in futility


My thoughts;
The extent of my NVG experience ended with my active duty a few decades ago so please take any comments or observations I make with respect to NVG use in our application with a huge grain of salt. I really have no way to speak intelligently with regard to todays NVG use. How it might work in the night ag environment on the other hand... well I have opinions. Perhaps someone like yourself or stearmann4, another Army gone ag member here could shed a better light.

My personal opinion is that NVG's even the most cutting edge technology, probably still do not posses the precision necessary to facilitate an ag op. In fact, I *think* the lack of precision is across the board and not just one facet. Looking at the pictures you posted, I'm not certaing I'd get a rotor that close to a tree, or a wing that close to a highline with the field of view limitations afforded by NVG's. Would you be able to pick out that last guy wire that was hidden in the bushes? I don't really know? Speaking of wires, how do they translate under NVG's? I suspect they are seen pretty much as they would be under 'day vision'. I'm sure you know that one of the positive elements of night ag is that the wires are tremendously easier to pick up. The only fly in the ointment there is that you pick them up on very short notice ~ 300'

Color? What's your take on that aspect? Shades of green... that's the first indicator of whether you're in the arugula (the stufff I never knew so many people like ) or in the mustard greens... or just AFU and over in the Kale One golden rule for me (a good tip for a budding pilot like Luke) ;
What color is the juice? On a busy night with multi airplanes on the pad, the wrong load has made it into the wrong airplane on more than one occasion... Putting the Lorsban from Joe's alfalfa work onto your next field of Manex on romaine is going to be an extremely expensive mistake... was that load red and clear or yellow and milkshake thick? Or is it the nice new blue Lannate that was mis delivered? 'Waterlines' no not plumbing, but where the irrigation stopped in the field... waterlines are usually your first indicator of where they want to start/stop a partial spray job. Could you pick that up with NVG's?

Definition? can you really see texture well at todays ag speeds? head lettuce vs romaine... both green, albiet sometimes an ever so slight difference in shade, but texture is a dead give away. Is the 'texture' good at 150MPH?

Fog/Dust? How do they do when you are tasked with spraying a field right next to a dry field being disced, a wheat field being harvested, or the feed lot not running their sprinklers at night? All of these make dust storms that rival the mid east. Night work with lights suck here, I suspect NVGs would be a huge asset here, but honestly have no clue.

External interference? In the next valley over much of their work is next to highways, or in town I am somewhat aware of the ATG technology, but being able to diminish the effects of external light sources well enough to take off and land, and being able to diminsh those effects on an aircraft working at ag speeds in a critical environment don't seem to compare to me? Is it really that good? I honestly don't know.

Failure modes? With half a dozen sunshine bright lights my most likely failure mode is a birdstrike on a single light... pretty benign, even when it happens in the field. Are there many contingencies plans for NVG failure?

Anyways... these are just personal thoughts from someone truly ignorant of todays NVG capabilities... Thoughts on your end?

Take care, Rob

180Marty wrote:A few more random thoughts and I better shut up.

Na... don't go there... I learn a ton from your posts, and enjoy the interaction!

This is a great thread so I hope I'm not detracting from it, but I have recent NVG experience and thought I could help out on this part of the discussion. I've got about 400 NG hrs in all lighting conditions from full moon to "red-illum." Most in combat performing recon, where avoiding wires and towers is a real thing while your attention is focused on the ground - similar to spraying?

NVG image quality with the latest generation that we use, ANVIS-6, is REALLY good. On the order of 20/40 in the center of the tube, though you do lose peripheral vision. Field of view is about 40*. A good "head movement" scan is a must to pick up lost visual cues with the reduction in field of view.

Draw-backs is weight on your head/neck and the amount of training it takes to get proficient enough to use them at low-level at high speeds. I had the benefit of flying a helicopter with them, which is much more maneuverable in avoiding last-minute obstacles and moves at slower speeds.

I've got to track them down but I'll attach some pictures I took through NVGs in low-light conditions if anyone wants to see them.

CamTom12 wrote:I've got to track them down but I'll attach some pictures I took through NVGs in low-light conditions if anyone wants to see them.

Please do!

I realized I missed a few of Rob's questions...

Rob wrote:My thoughts;
The extent of my NVG experience ended with my active duty a few decades ago so please take any comments or observations I make with respect to NVG use in our application with a huge grain of salt. I really have no way to speak intelligently with regard to todays NVG use. How it might work in the night ag environment on the other hand... well I have opinions. Perhaps someone like yourself or stearmann4, another Army gone ag member here could shed a better light.

My personal opinion is that NVG's even the most cutting edge technology, probably still do not posses the precision necessary to facilitate an ag op. In fact, I *think* the lack of precision is across the board and not just one facet. Looking at the pictures you posted, I'm not certaing I'd get a rotor that close to a tree, or a wing that close to a highline with the field of view limitations afforded by NVG's. Would you be able to pick out that last guy wire that was hidden in the bushes? I don't really know? Speaking of wires, how do they translate under NVG's? I suspect they are seen pretty much as they would be under 'day vision'. I'm sure you know that one of the positive elements of night ag is that the wires are tremendously easier to pick up. The only fly in the ointment there is that you pick them up on very short notice ~ 300'

Depending on the light level they range from easy to spot or hard to spot. We typically ID them by the poles, like I'm sure ya'll do. Much easier to see that way.

Rob wrote:Color? What's your take on that aspect? Shades of green... that's the first indicator of whether you're in the arugula (the stufff I never knew so many people like ) or in the mustard greens... or just AFU and over in the Kale One golden rule for me (a good tip for a budding pilot like Luke) ;
What color is the juice? On a busy night with multi airplanes on the pad, the wrong load has made it into the wrong airplane on more than one occasion... Putting the Lorsban from Joe's alfalfa work onto your next field of Manex on romaine is going to be an extremely expensive mistake... was that load red and clear or yellow and milkshake thick? Or is it the nice new blue Lannate that was mis delivered? 'Waterlines' no not plumbing, but where the irrigation stopped in the field... waterlines are usually your first indicator of where they want to start/stop a partial spray job. Could you pick that up with NVG's?

Probably not!

Rob wrote:Definition? can you really see texture well at todays ag speeds? head lettuce vs romaine... both green, albiet sometimes an ever so slight difference in shade, but texture is a dead give away. Is the 'texture' good at 150MPH?

Not daylight-good, but pretty good at higher light levels. Texture diminishes proportional to ambient lighting.

Rob wrote:Fog/Dust? How do they do when you are tasked with spraying a field right next to a dry field being disced, a wheat field being harvested, or the feed lot not running their sprinklers at night? All of these make dust storms that rival the mid east. Night work with lights suck here, I suspect NVGs would be a huge asset here, but honestly have no clue.

NVGs see through minor obscurants pretty well. For us it adds a risk of going IIMC in skosh conditions, but I imagine it would be a bonus in an ag situation.

Rob wrote:External interference? In the next valley over much of their work is next to highways, or in town I am somewhat aware of the ATG technology, but being able to diminish the effects of external light sources well enough to take off and land, and being able to diminsh those effects on an aircraft working at ag speeds in a critical environment don't seem to compare to me? Is it really that good? I honestly don't know.

With bright background lighting the goggles will 'dim' and you'll lose contrast in the darker areas in your field of view, but the ANVIS-6 respond very quickly to background lighting and the limited field of view is a major plus here. Just turn your head to put the bright lights out of the field of view (if possible) and the levels and contrast come right back up in the darkened area. They work pretty well over Baghdad, anyway.

Rob wrote:Failure modes? With half a dozen sunshine bright lights my most likely failure mode is a birdstrike on a single light... pretty benign, even when it happens in the field. Are there many contingencies plans for NVG failure?

The EP for NVG failure is to turn away from known obstacles and initiate a climb to a safe altitude. Having said that, I've never experienced or heard of a failure in the new generation goggles. The battery pack has a pair of redundant batteries on a switch should you run out of juice on the other pair, and there's a super annoying flashing red light on the NVG mount just above your eyes that warns you when your primary batteries are running low. As an experiment, I left a pair of 'flashing' batteries installed and in use for 4x 5-6 hr straight NVG missions just to see how long they'd last. I only swapped them out because I was getting sick of the red flashing light!


Rob, I'll look for those pictures tonight and see if I can get them posted up!

EDIT: fixed some typos

We charge extra to fly in em Rob. So I don't mind it. It just takes longer. Can't say I'm not sad remembering what it use to be like to fly the same field.
The turning them off thing. It won't work. Sorry. Sounds good in theory. But it ends being sooo much hassle you just say screw it.
Kinda like nice days versus rough days. You gotta fly regardless. You enjoy enjoy the nice days more. O wait. You don't know much about that I guess.

Anyways were starting to get busy spraying sugar cane aphids on grain. Not to be confused with the yellow sugar cane aphid. This has never been before. Came from Mexico. I love bugs.
Hopefully right back to te sunflowers right after this run.

Never thought about the insurance deal..
So if we smack one, and hopefully survive, we have to pay for it!!??

Skalywag,
Got mixed up with you and Rob. I didn't know Hilton unless that was Q-Ball. He was unmistakable. Head as bald as Yul Brenner. I thought Yul was natural bald until I told my wife Q-Ball was just like him and wondered what caused that. She answered, "they shave it." With all my worldwide experience, how can I be such a dumb hillbilly sometimes?
Jim

55 Wagon,
I assume/hope there is a minimum clearance for windmill blades.
Jim

Regarding the goggles, short story for me would be I'd rather have them on any day of the week. You can always flip them up in a failure or if there are some sort of conditions you think would be better without. Only failure I had in 61/2 years was getting a hole burnt in them from my wingman's laser. Most of my night work was in CA under a marine layer. Only place worse for light that I recall in the military was under an overcast, over water when there wasn't any wave action to put white caps on top of the waves. Felt like being in a mine shaft.
Anyway goggles have their limitations just like work lights or any other tool. (was interesting to see the extra set on that air tractor that was upside down you posted Rob) I don't think anyone that's flown them would rather go without. I think they would give an extra margin of safety in a lot of scenarios. Any type of emergency scenario where you pull up to gain composure or trouble shoot and are above the working range of lights would be huge. End of crying in my milk. I'm gonna go back to lurking. Thanks for the thread and for making me very happy I don't have to work around any wind farms!

Cam, and Meat,

Thanks! super informative. I'd like to try a set just because. But I still think it'd take a lot of thought to adapt them to night ag.

What about the light bar? We keep them dimmed down pretty much to the max, but I wonder how the NVG's would do with an LED light source 6 feet in front of you?

Another *interesting* moment might come checking the hopper level. We have lights mounted in the hopper that we will hit in the turns now and then to make sure what the flow control says and what is really in the hopper really jive with each other. It's always startling getting in someone else's plane and hitting a switch you thought was the smoker, only to have a ball of light illuminate in front of you

The weight is likely to be a deal breaker for me in the peak season... Although I think they're ugly as sin I have recently switched over from dual lens Gallet helmets to single lens ones. The weight savings makes a huge difference in the neck / shoulder blade tension at the end of a long night. Doubtful I'd want to hang even more weight out there unless it really made an earth shattering difference.



'55,

As I recall, Buck's insurance didn't say they wouldn't cover him in the turbines, Just that rebuilding one (how they'd treat an airplane strike) would reach $$$ way beyond his policy. He actually said he'd continue to fly them if the coop or someone paid the insurance difference, and a little premium for the extra time. Coop said no dice and he pulled his planes out of the 'windmill pool'.


Take care, Rob

almost forgot...

There is one thing I really despise about NVGs...

My valley is positioned between two ranges in the Yuma area. Marine corps pilots being no different than any of us, are always up for a good airshow, and will frequently position their flights to or from the base to get a closer look at an ag pilot working. It's also probably pretty normal to mis judge the closure rate of a spray plane coming out of a field... I can't tell you how many times I've pulled up out of a field only to be greeted by a flight of 53's, 46's, cobra's etc all blacked out.... I never get too pumped up about it because I know these boys are probably as proficient as it gets with evasive maneuvers but if you don't see the tail end's red light it is startling...

Take care, Rob