Speaking of "runnin outa elevator"

Has anyone ever hear of, or able to explain, a phenomenon "labled" to me once as, "elevator stall" ?!?

Was leaving Sulphur Cr with a load of junk on a "warm" afternoon with a bit of on-and-off tailwind. Was still in ground effect and about mid way down to the fence when all of a sudden there was NO response from the elevator, UP OR DOWN. Wandered around among the bushes till got out around the ridge out on the right, and only then the elevator take effect again. Hmmm ?!?

In a conventional airplane if it ever really stalled, the nose would pitch down rather abruptly.

GumpAir wrote:

Capt. Kirk wrote:Ho-le-crap...grenade just launched into the Wheel-Landers camp. Stand by for return fire!

{I got your back Gump!}

A guy's gotta be proficient in both to get the most out of his conventional geared airplane.
Do I still screw up and skip one in every now and then (OK, all the f**king time)... Damn right I do, and it's then that I get pissed at myself, jam forward elevator and stick it on with a wheel landing.

Gump

Gump,

Right you are. PROFICIENT! When I had the 180 I would trim a little nose down "one roll of the trim wheel" and carry a wee bit more speed and plant it on, forward yoke to kill any lift. For me the piddle amout of time I flew "50-60 hours a year" did not keep me on the ball well enough to fly the 180. Hence why I fly a 182 now. And I have used the taxi way more than once in stiff quarterning cross winds here at BNO.

Fly safe Bub

wanabe wrote:Speaking of "runnin outa elevator"

Has anyone ever hear of, or able to explain, a phenomenon "labled" to me once as, "elevator stall" ?!?

It's just what is sounds like. The critical angle of attack is exceeded on the tail and it stops producing lift. Since the tail is actually producing negative lift, as a64 said, the tail pitches up, and the nose goes down.

This typically can only happen with an extreamly nose heavy CG, during radical manuvering like aerobatics, because of ice accumulation on the tail or duing full flap slips in at least one type of aircraft. (I'd name the aircraft, but it might seem like I was picking on 170's then.)

Phil

wanabe wrote:Has anyone ever hear of, or able to explain, a phenomenon "labled" to me once as, "elevator stall" ?!?

Ask those of us who don't like to fly the Caravan, especially when you're in ice.

Gump

Jr.CubBuilder wrote:

AntiCub wrote: But I've heard that some planes, like the C-170, have limited rudder authority in the 3 point attitude, since it's being blanketed by the fuselage (I heard that was the reason the 180/185 has such a tall tail).Phil

Mine has plenty of authority even down to stall with the motor at idle, they used basically the same rudder on the C190/195 which is a lot bigger and heavier. I think the switch to the squared tail feathers on the C180 was mostly asthetics to match the wings.

Well, I won't try argue since I was just repeating what an experienced 170 pilot told me and haven't actually experienced it. What they said exactly was that "right as the plane rotates into 3 point attitude, just before touchdown the rudder athority dimishes". They were making a point about the importance of learning to wheel land at the time. But Maybe that's just a rigging quirk of that particular plane.

Phil

Capt. Kirk wrote:I've landed in really (cross) windy conditions in Weed Calif. in my luscombe. .

I grew up in Yreka. Nobody makes consistent good landings at Weed Airport. Nobody. Especially in something as light as a Luscombe.

Gump

I have noticed that once it does start to swing it's got a lot more momentum by comparison it seemed like you could swat the tail on the J3 around a bit more without it turning into a ground loop. Don't really want to say how I figured that out Embarassed

No worries, If it's any help I ground looped the Citabria once. Fortunately no damage since my instructor later told me he didn't have insurance to cover us solo. Tried to turn off the runway while still going a bit to fast. Ended up on the taxiway, but facing back toward the runway.

Phil

GumpAir wrote:

Capt. Kirk wrote:I've landed in really (cross) windy conditions in Weed Calif. in my luscombe. .

I grew up in Yreka. Nobody makes consistent good landings at Weed Airport. Nobody. Especially in something as light as a Luscombe.

Gump

Wow, lotta Siskyou county boys here! (I grew up in Weed)
Got my check ride from Terry Weathers in Montague. Pretty short check ride since me, him and 1/2 hr fuel in that 150 was right at gross.

The winds at Weed really sharpen a pilots skills. Since I've moved to Fairbanks I haven't really had to deal with those kinds of winds.

AntiCub wrote:

I have noticed that once it does start to swing it's got a lot more momentum by comparison it seemed like you could swat the tail on the J3 around a bit more without it turning into a ground loop. Don't really want to say how I figured that out Embarassed

No worries, If it's any help I ground looped the Citabria once. Fortunately no damage since my instructor later told me he didn't have insurance to cover us solo. Tried to turn off the runway while still going a bit to fast. Ended up on the taxiway, but facing back toward the runway.

Phil

Bet you did a wheel landing didn't you? That explains it!

Capt. Kirk wrote:Wow, lotta Siskyou county boys here! (I grew up in Weed)
Got my check ride from Terry Weathers in Montague. Pretty short check ride since me, him and 1/2 hr fuel in that 150 was right at gross.

Whole bunch of us left Yreka in the 70's and found flying jobs in Alaska. A couple died, and the rest of us have pretty much had our fill and wandered back down where it's warm.

Terry was just starting at Rohrer Field as we left, but seemed like a great guy. New bunch in there now seem like nice folks too.

Gump

How did I miss this great thread?

JRStripe wrote:I read something somewhere sometime about a modification the Blue Angles made to their F/A-18s. They add a spring to pull the stick forward. The reasoning is their pilot is able to make more precise adjustments to a force that is in one direction instead alternating back and forth between pushing and pulling. Maybe that feeling of better control is the human factor that causes pilots to add a little nose-down trim when landing.

There's a null point when moving the stick. In order to fly precisely in close formation, the spring/bungee was added to always have forward pull on the stick, causing the pilot to always have an aft, constant pull on the stick to eliminate the null point. Increasing back pressure or releasing back pressure always resulted in minute control movement and precise control.

Some airplanes will tolerate landing out of trim and others will not. Someone once showed me the "missionary position" on the stab trim in my 185, i.e. not trimming for the landing and having to constantly pull on the yoke. Being in the habit of flying airplanes that absolutely required trim to speed or suffer loss of elevator authority, and airplanes that responded to finesse with an on trim condition, my landings were terrible.

I trim, regardless of the airplane I'm flying...and I have better results. The best answer? It depends on the airplane(s) you fly and what your technique is, but I teach trimming to speed. How many times do you go around vs. landing? Trim for the odds.

In my ragwing 170 (small flaps), I generally have full nose-up trim in by the time I turn final. That trim setting makes a go-around pretty exciting, but without it I have to keep an awful lot of back-pressure to stay on approach speed.
In my new 150TD, I take off with the trim set just a bit nose-up of neutral, & trim nose down just a bit (neutral +) as I accelerate into level flight and cruise speed. Later,as I slow down into the pattern, I roll in a bit of nose-up trim (just a bit more nose-up than the takeoff setting) and can pretty much leave the trim there as I progressively pull on more flaps, decelerate, & descend. Makes it pretty easy for a go-around or touch & go-- I have to lose the flaps but don't immediately have to mess with the trim.
This 150/150TD flies differently enough from the 170 that there is a pretty good learning curve involved, but it sure is fun & sporty to fly.

Eric