What do folks do with MOAs? Fly through without blinking an eye? Check with center? Avoid altogether? Pucker up and watch like a hawk?
tom

My airport is in a moa.Most of this area is.I don't really even think about it,just grew up flying here.The jets were up playing the other day and we keep an eye out.I only had 1 close encounter.i was giving a new girlfriend a ride in a maule and was doing a very steep climb and upon reaching the top of a ridge my windshield was full of an f 15.I think i surprised him too.That was some years ago.

Admittedly I don't do anything but go. Surprisingly enough most of my encounters with high speed military traffic at low altitude has not been in MOA's it has been along MTR's but outside of an actual MOA. I have had numerous encounters at work in ag planes. Mostly fertilizing pine trees in the southeastern states but one was in the raft river valley between American Falls and Burley, Idaho. Only two where I was close enough with the proper trajectory that when I finally saw them I thought "wow I almost died!" One of those was the one in Raft river, I had just finished a pass southbound and begun the pull up with a left hand turn. As I was up in the turn (@2-300agl) I noticed a shadow overtaking me (fast) from the northeast. As I looked up through the turn window (a small window in the top-side of the canopy I caught a window full of F-18 belly. He had probably seen the tops of my wings at the last second and began a hard turn to his left (east). After he cleared and I could see I caught a glimpse of his wing man also in the turn but about a 1/4 mi. in trail and east.
I've also pulled up at the end of a pass and looked up to see an A-10 about 50 yards at my 2 o'clock moving across in front of me only to look 90 right and see HIS wingman dead on me pulling up trying to out climb me! That was between Franklinton and Bogalusa, Louisiana.
Also been head down fiddling with my GPS only to look up and have two F-18's coming head on and passing on either side of me at about 500agl. and 100 or so yards either side.That was ten miles north of Wiggins, MS.
Also had some Harriers come by relatively close north of Mobile, Al. Numerous swoops from military Beechjets or Sabreliners near Columbus,MS. Even went right under four C-130's that popped over a ridge at the south end of the Appalachian chain in Fort Payne,Al. I was fertilizing at the base of it about 400 feet lower. I was a bit concerned about settling vorticies at first but it was pretty kick ass to have 16 black exhaust trails going over the top! They were gettin' after the quality formation for being Herc's and all. None of that 1/2 mile in trail crap!
Almost all of these outside a MOA. Everyone get's aware of a MOA, it's a huge magenta hashed line, but most overlook the little thin grey lines connecting those MOA's. My observations have also been that in a MOA they are working as well so you can see them better when in the turn. When they are on an MTR they are little darts, wings level, hard to see and haulin' ass.
My advice to add is know your local MTR's as well as MOA's and if you see one close ,start looking for the others.
And as in my case with the A-10's, friggin' duck first!

I fly in and around the Saline MOA's on my way to and from Las Vegas. GPS direct will take me right through the North East corner of the Northern most MOA. I will generally monitor Joshua approach and if it's hot (which it usually is weekdays) I'll stay north. Reason being is you need to be at 10k plus to be in solid radar contact and east bound that would put me at 11.5k VFR. I usually fly the leg at 9.5k for obvious reasons and it's only about a 5-10 minute diversion. On the way home (usually Sunday) it's no problem with no traffic.

Bottom line, listen in ahead of time and if it's hot and busy, I'd steer clear unless your destination is inside the MOA and then I'd try to get flight following and traffic advisories.

I have called approach knowing good and well I was below radar, just to let them know I was in the area.

On a related note, anybody ever suspect a controller of vectoring aircraft to intercept you on UHF (their normal freq's, where we can't hear) for fun and games ? I swear it happened to me once, years ago in Arizona. That 206 is still missing the part of the cushion my butt decided to bite...

Mark

There are a restricted area (R-6701) and an alert area (A-680) in nmy area, near NAS Whisbey Island. Whidbey's ATIS usually (but at least once not!) sez if either one is active, and altitudes they're active at. There are a few MOA's and have never heard them mentioned in the ATIS recording.
I would think either Flight Service or Center should be able to tell you if anything militairy is active.

Eric

I like to talk to the controllers partly because they will point out all the cool jets that you might miss in your normal scan. " 4 o'clock 12,000 three f117's moving rt to left" I love to see all the Edwards jets doing their thing. Over Death valley and the surrounding areas there are alot of them. Once while on the ground at the chicken strip we got buzzed by 2 f18s that were only 2-300 feet off the deck.

Call center and get a squawk if you can. Last summer a gentelman died in a midair in an AT-602. Was a new airplane and did not have a transponder. Since then I won't deliver an airplane without a transponder and a blind encoder.

There are MOA's and then there are MOA's. If it says anywhere on the chart something like "student jet training area", I'd think twice about spending much time in there.

Some MOA's actually have real time MOA control, ie: their own range control radar--as in eastern Alaska. In this case, the controlling agency is the MILITARY NOT Center. Call center and ask for info, and they'll tell you it's hot, but they don't track aircraft in it. Range Control does, with GPS pods on the aircraft.

As to MTR's, don't bet for a moment that airplanes operating on MTR's are wings level, and flying straight. MTR's are NOT just a straight line, though that's the way they're portrayed on our charts. They are actually up to 10 or so MILES wide, and they can reach up quite high in altitude. So, if you see a gray line on your VFR chart, eyes up, and look around. A fighter aircraft on an MTR will be jinking and popping up to look behind frequently, not just flying straight ahead.

I agree that MTR's are probably more problematic than MOA's in some ways.

As a civilian pilot, though it is also important to understand that these are JOINT use airspace, NOT just military airspace. You can go there any time you wish.

Just do so in an informed manner, talk to anyone including ATC to get as much information as possible, but don't count on anyone being able to give you actual useage information unless there is real time MOA control.

If you call AFSS, they will cite the MOA active times for you, which you can get off the margin of your chart. Same with MANY, but not all Center Controllers. All they're required to do is inform you whether the airspace is activated or not. That does not, however mean there are aircraft in the airspace, and, for large portions of the active times, most MOA's are empty of military aircraft.

MTV

Fort Sill to the north of me (Artillery, Mortar, and Rocket fire surface-to-surface and CAS (air-to-surface)); Shepard AFB to the south (T-37 and T-38); Altus AFB to the west (BIG airplanes) and MOAs everywhere. Usually, I just get flight following from Ft Sill approach and try to look everywhere.

Don, KR5T

Here's an article that is on a lot of blogs, but I haven't seen in a "real" news channel:
tom

******************
F-16 fires on SUV while training at Hill AFB

The Associated Press
Posted : Wednesday Apr 16, 2008 17:11:03 EDT

HILL AIR FORCE BASE, Utah — Two soldiers in a sport utility vehicle escaped when an F-16 fighter jet opened fire and destroyed the SUV during a night training exercise in Utah.

A Hill Air Force Base spokeswoman says the soldiers suffered minor injuries when they jumped out of the vehicle at the Utah Test and Training Range. They were not hit by any of the 20 mm rounds fired by the pilot on April 8.

The SUV was in part of the range where the Air Force uses live ammunition in mock combat. Lt. Beth Woodward says it was not clear whether the soldiers were supposed to be in the area when the pilot fired.
Air Force investigators have closed part of the range as they investigate the incident.

Those 20mm sure do make big holes! It's good to know that some people's car troubles are actually worse than mine.
******************************

You mean it didn't explode like in the movies?

Here's what goes on behind the UHF scenes regarding MOAs (restricted areas and MTRs are slightly different animals):

Flight checks in with the controlling agency for the airspace, typically center. They clear the flight into the airspace and clear them to work on a discreet frequency, which center monitors. If an interloper enters the airspace, whether in radio comm with the controlling agency or not, the military flight is immediately advised of the traffic - bottom line is, if you are squawking and the controlling agency has radar coverage you'll be seen. Any training in progress is immediately knocked off and the flight maneuvers to positively deconflict from the civilian flight. If there is a radar equipped aircraft in the flight he may try to get a lock on the interloper to assure deconfliction. Then the flight loiters until the controlling agency calls the transiting aircraft clear, at which point training can resume.

The controlling agency will be able to tell you if the airspace is in use since the military users are required to check in and out. If they don't have radar coverage they may only be in procedural control, but they can nonetheless tell you if anyone is in there. It is true that airspace is often scheduled but not used - jets break, schedules change, shit happens. All you have to do is call and ask. No foul though if you don't - as soon as we see you we'll get out of the way until you're clear.

As I mentioned in a different thread, MTRs are a more worrisome issue. Lots of folks trolling around with min SA on their existence and activity level. When using a route we check in and out with the appropriate FSS, so if you call them they can tell you if there is anyone on the route.

Aside from restricted areas, our airspace is designed to be shared and there are procedures in place to ensure that the sharing is done safely. The key is just knowing the rules.

Cheers, Vick

1SeventyZ wrote:You mean it didn't explode like in the movies?

In another article, they stated that the F16 was using practice, ball ammo instead of explosive rounds. Had the explosive ones been used, the results would have been far different.
tom

I agree with Vick. But having flown the trainers for several years, if you're around a pilot training base, be afraid, very afraid, even if you're not in the MOA. Solo students are not always where they are supposed to be, and may be hanging on to the tail of the jet by a hair. A very good idea to talk to the controlling agency, so you'll know where they are, even if they don't.

Vick wrote:<<<Lots of good stuff snipped here>>>
Aside from restricted areas, our airspace is designed to be shared and there are procedures in place to ensure that the sharing is done safely. The key is just knowing the rules.

Cheers, Vick

Vick, thanks for your explanations. I appreciate knowing more about how this stuff works.

I also read in some aviation rag today, that starting in August, the sectionals will have MOA contact numbers printed right on them so us GA folks can check more easily what the status is without having to unfold them to get to the MOA table.

tom

mtv wrote:Some MOA's actually have real time MOA control, ie: their own range control radar--as in eastern Alaska. In this case, the controlling agency is the MILITARY NOT Center.
MTV

I've always had great assistance from Range Control in the Tanana valley around Fairbanks. In interior Alaska, Eielson Range Control is the "Airspace Manager". The official name of the program is the Special Use Airspace Information Service, or SUAIS.

You can phone ahead (1-800-758-8723), or radio (125.3), and they also have a website (www.elmendorf.af.mil).

When I'm headed through, I call Range Control on 125.3, and they will tell you what you can expect for company on your way through.

Quote from SUAIS literature: "Eielson Range Control DOES NOT provide air traffic control. They can provide information on the status of airspace and the APPROXIMATE locations of MILITARY AIRCRAFT in the area. IFR vectoring, processing of flight plans, etc., is not provided. Use of the SUAIS constitutes an acknowledgment, understanding and acceptance of the limitations of the system."

-DP

This story about a recent f-16 intercept of a PC-12 and Beechjet flying through an MOA lead me to question that ATC is aware of what the jet jocks are doing:

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/exclusivevids/ExclusiveVideo_F16InterceptsJetTurboprop_MOA_198263-1.html

Sounds like a pretty stupid viper driver and I'm sure he paid for it - what this guy did is obviously not in keeping with any training rules I've ever heard of. And just so there's no doubt, guys have had their wings pulled over stunts like this.

Just to emphasize, ATC has no control over or immediate awareness of what SUA users are doing beyond radar hits - they only know when users check in and out of the airspace. And they don't guarantee positive deconfliction/ IFR separation between military and civilian traffic in the airspace, that's why we deliberately move away from traffic that is called out or that we obtain visually.

I try to fly around or under them if it is convenient to do so, and I consider the fact that if active training is occurring that my passage through the airspace might temporarily delay their training regimen...but I exercise my privilege to share the airspace if needed, whether or not it is active (and I check.)

One quick note on MTR's:

Military aircraft are required to report on and off an MTR to the nearest Flight Service Station.

Unfortunately, FSS has no way of recording, tracking, or reporting that information. Further, nowadays the nearest FSS could be in Canton, China, for all you know

The point is, as Lowfly said, WATCH out when on MTR's. Don't bother to call the local flight service station, cause unless you just get lucky and talk to the FSS specialist who took the military call, they'll probably tell you they have no idea of traffic on the MTR.

That came from three different FSS specialists, one of whom is a supervisor.

Unfortunately, while the military pilots in this case do what they're required to do, it's pretty pointless.

MTV