i was looking into possibly leasing my airplane this year, its a 66' 180H on floats, fresh engine...etc...just wondering what the average going rate for dry lease is. I was thinking between $60 to $100 per hour

I just dont want to undercut or price myself out of the market before i dive in.

I really don't know what's it's worth, but I was in Seattle two weeks ago and wanted to rent a 180 on straight floats so I called Kenmore Air, and they wanted $495 an hour with an instructor.

This is a tricky question, but I think $60 to $100 /hr is way too low. $200/hr wet is more like it and figuring 12 gal.hr at say $4/gal. then you would come in at around $150/hr. dry.

Check out the Seaplane Assocition's list of instructers, most have rental rates listed. Very few rent float planes for solo use, but that will give you a feel for those that are. Adventure Seaplanes did rent out their 180 and at one time an outfit on the Mississippi River in either Illinois or Iowa did also.

I would be curious about insurance costs when leasing out your plane. Would you be concerned about someone that did not take care of the plane like you do, such as proper warm-up, shock cooling, dinged floats? How about someone nosing over and killing themselves and or passengers. Would an LLC or incorporating even get you away from that exposure?

Just my thoughts. Steve

steve wrote:. Would an LLC or incorporating even get you away from that exposure?

Just my thoughts. Steve

Yes, they could only sue for the LLC companies assets, and the only asset the company would/should have is the plane, which presumably would be be wrecked anyways if they're suing you. And if it's a sole proprietor LLC you get to deduct any losses against your personal income.

Wow. You have bigger co-joans than I.
I'd rather rent out a girlfriend than a nice bird.
Unless I was going for the Insur..........Ahhhhh.

Your POSITIVE the LLC is enough firewall?????

I have talked to a couple of pretty savvy aviation attorneys regarding the use of an LLC to protect me when flight instructing. Their response is that in a sole proprietorship LLC, it would take any decent attorney about five minutes to penetrate that veil, and get to YOUR personal assets. I got similar advice from an insurance broker, who I wasn't insured with, and who wasn't offering me insurance. I opted not to form an LLC on that advice.

I too would be VERY reluctant to lease out an airplane, especially one on floats, unless it was to something like an air taxi business, with VERY high pilot qualification requirements. I can introduce you to a couple of fellows who've been down this road, and lost their airplanes. Got reimbursed, but not without a big fight, and legal fees.

If you do decide to lease the plane out, make ABSOLUTELY certain that you write up and have the leasee sign a VERY restrictive contract, which requires LOTS of insurance (I wouldn't even consider ANY deal like this without $1 million SMOOTH, plus full hull coverage) LOTS of PIC experience, a THOROUGH (as in 20 to 25 hour) checkout in the plane, etc. I wouldn't even consider leasing to ANYone with less than 500 PIC in seaplanes.

If they're not willing to go for that, I'd forget it. You'll be better off to pickle the engine and park it on the bank for the summer, and money ahead.

There are LOTS of folks out there who will happily wreck that airplane for you, then walk away, and leave you holding the bag. The $1 Million SMOOTH insurance coverage will HELP to protect YOU, since it's likely that the insurance will actually cover everyone who might be injured in an accident.

MTV

yes, im well aware of the ramifications, and I already figured on having large insurance requirements and a large hull requirement...etc..with minimums found often in Part 135 operations for the pilot...and very restrictive lease agreements along with part 135 maintenance scheduling

to clarify, im not looking at wet (IE: im with them in the plane, pay fuel etc)

I am looking at straight dry, they pay all expenses, fuel, insurance, maintenance etc...

Doesn't make ANY difference. It's YOUR plane. If they screw up and kill or injure someone, and they don't have sufficient insurance, someone may come after you, and you will probably be found liable.

Call your insurance agent. Call a knowledgeable AVIATION attorney.

And, remember, at the end of the season, if they return the airplane needing a major overhaul on the engine, and a new prop, plus new paint, unless you have an AIRTIGHT contract, with a huge deductable, you'll lose big time.

Park it on the bank if you can't afford to fly it.

MTV

Hey you want to try something real fun? Call the insurance people and tell them you want to do a skydive op with an amphib, eecchhhemmm That is really fun

Seems like this conversation came up awhile back with someone wanting to lease a cub. As I recall, in the conversation, talk of a Beaver w/floats (the flying kind) came up and the dry rate was around $145 an hour on that bad boy. Not sure if that's right, but if it is, it would make it pretty hard to get much more than $100 for a 180. Might try a search on the subject, or maybe look over at supercub.org.

gb

Don't forget the attitude 'INMFE'. (It's Not My * Engine). I have seen this attitude and heard it expressed (those words) by pilots who I would not have expected that from. That is a large part of my reason for my first post on this thread (Ref-Girlfriend).

Hey, analyze gain vs. risk from every angle you can imagine, and you could still be blindsided by a situation that is a supprise. Pretty much boils down to who you are dealing with-and there can be suprises there, too.

In school, they give you the information, and then they give you the test.
In life, you get the test, and if you survive it.....you have additional information.
I have found tuition in school is drastically cheaper.

Whatever you chose.......Best of luck with it. We all wish you well, we are just sharing life experience we have paid steep 'tuition' for.

Wow, I must be on a different planet than you guys. On my planet, a plain old 182 with a nose wheel rents for $125 - $175 / hr. I figure my cost to fly my 180 somewhere in the $100 / hr range with no business insurance just private on wheels. I would imagine business insurance would double my rate and put it on floats for another doubling of the rate. If you lease your 180 for $65/hr, let me know and I'll fly yours instead of mine. And $145/hr for a Beaver sounds totally wrong to me. I would expect more likely in the $300 range or something. Your numbers are so far off mine that I must be misinterpreting something here.

Wayne

yes, i was thinking more along the lines of $100/hr dry

It's easy to figure your costs
fat
$30,000 engine at 1700 hrs=$17.64 per hour replacement
$7000 prop at 1700 hrs = $4.12 per hour replacement
$100,000 airframe at 8000 hrs = $12.50 per hour replacement
$20,000 floats at 3000 hrs = $6.67 per hour replacement
Put $10.00 for avionics
Total comes to $50.93
Annual costs $5000 at 300 hrs = $16.84
Now up to $67.77
Thats the basic cost of your bird if you were using for 135?? just guessing but pretty close?
300 hrs use at $100 is $30,000- costs of $20,331 nets you $9669 ??
I would loan it to a good friend for nothing before I would let someone put 300 hrs on my plane for 10 grand!!!
Just my 2 cents??
best of luck GT

c180pilot wrote:Wow, I must be on a different planet than you guys. On my planet, a plain old 182 with a nose wheel rents for $125 - $175 / hr. I figure my cost to fly my 180 somewhere in the $100 / hr range with no business insurance just private on wheels. I would imagine business insurance would double my rate and put it on floats for another doubling of the rate. If you lease your 180 for $65/hr, let me know and I'll fly yours instead of mine. And $145/hr for a Beaver sounds totally wrong to me. I would expect more likely in the $300 range or something. Your numbers are so far off mine that I must be misinterpreting something here.

Wayne

All I can say is welcome to our planet. On a dry lease, the one doing the leasing from the owner (would that be leasee or leasor?) is paying for insurance, light maintenance, oil, fuel, wear and tear damage, etc. On a rent, typically the owner is footing the bill for that stuff, and usually the fuel, thus the price difference.

There are people that do nothing but lease out their aircraft for a living and do well at it.

gb

ALSO-This C-180 is on a set of floats. Wear and tear, metal fatigue on ribs, etc......
When I had my floats re-bottomed because of ribs metal fatiguing and breaking......that's a lot of rivets! Therefore hours of labor, therefore $!

That's probably gone up more than a few percent since mine were done a decade+ ago.