elgoatropo wrote:I agree with these wise words. In fact, the behavior I am criticizing here is this:

Automatically doing something that you saw a bush pilot do. Making it so automatic, that you assume it is the only way, to the point that you would be so bold as to dump someone else's flaps for them when they appear to have their hands full with the throttles and yoke.

As a young pilot, I pulled this trick on my boss in a BN2A Islander landing on a beach in moderate turbulence. He would have been justified in leaving me behind on that beach.

If you are lucky enough to be sitting on the right hand side with an experienced pilot you don't touch anything unless asked to do so least risk being bitch slapped .

elgoatropo wrote: ...to the point that you would be so bold as to dump someone else's flaps for them when they appear to have their hands full with the throttles and yoke.

I think this is an entirely different issue/topic from flap technique, and you'd be well served to dissociate them for clarity of point.

You don't touch a guy's controls without some prior agreement or directive.

Zzz wrote:

elgoatropo wrote: ...to the point that you would be so bold as to dump someone else's flaps for them when they appear to have their hands full with the throttles and yoke.

I think this is an entirely different issue/topic from flap technique, and you'd be well served to dissociate them for clarity of point.

You don't touch a guy's controls without some prior agreement or directive.

Gotcha. Back to the point. People tend to dump the flaps because they are better drivers that fliers. When our flying skills approach or exceed our driving skills, we will be in less hurry to convert the plane into an automobile.

Must be a weather day up there.

Zzz wrote:Must be a weather day up there.

On-call. Everybody else is out camping and fishing.

Plane's fly better than car's, and car's drive better than plane's.

Glidergeek wrote:

elgoatropo wrote:I agree with these wise words. In fact, the behavior I am criticizing here is this:

Automatically doing something that you saw a bush pilot do. Making it so automatic, that you assume it is the only way, to the point that you would be so bold as to dump someone else's flaps for them when they appear to have their hands full with the throttles and yoke.

As a young pilot, I pulled this trick on my boss in a BN2A Islander landing on a beach in moderate turbulence. He would have been justified in leaving me behind on that beach.

If you are lucky enough to be sitting on the right hand side with an experienced pilot you don't touch anything unless asked to do so least risk being bitch slapped .

Ya, it's weird here. It's not unusual for a front seat passenger or deadheading pilot to tune a freq or dial in a transponder code for you without being asked. But you prove your inexperience if you classify flaps with other non-essential housekeeping. You wouldn't touch a man's mixture control unless you wanted a judo-chop to the throat.

elgoatropo wrote:Gotcha. Back to the point. People tend to dump the flaps because they are better drivers that fliers. When our flying skills approach or exceed our driving skills, we will be in less hurry to convert the plane into an automobile.

Or they need to dump the flaps.

'55,

Never..... with respect to flying, I treat always and never exactly the same... And I treat them exactly as you do

"I agree with these wise words. In fact, the behavior I am criticizing here is this:

Automatically doing something that you saw a bush pilot do. Making it so automatic, that you assume it is the only way, to the point that you would be so bold as to dump someone else's flaps for them when they appear to have their hands full with the throttles and yoke."

Two different points here.
And that argument could be used on a ton of techniques and styles. I don't know any good pilots personally that put many regulations on how they do things "every single" time. Most pilots I respect and have learned from, when I ask them a question on how to, they typically respond with..... Ready for this....
"It all depends".
Kinda like asking an awesome cook for a recipe. There's usually not one written down. Lil of this, Lil of that is what you get.

elgoatropo wrote:What are some good reasons for retracting flaps on touchdown?

Better control during a crosswind roll-out, provided you can keep the tail up with brakes.

My 170B has better rudder authority with flaps up when slow, which I assume is related to better airflow over the tail. This is particularly noticeable on straight skis. For ski flying, I don't typically pull flaps until the tail flies on takeoff and I dump the flaps after landing to gain the drag and steering ability of the tail ski. I rarely dump flaps when operating on wheels until after the tail is down and the excitement is over. So to the OP I say "it depends".

One thing i'v got from this site is (FWIW), if you want to use the brakes hard, dumping the flaps makes the tail heavy and not as likely to nose over

elgoatropo wrote:What are some good reasons for retracting flaps on touchdown?

....to win the spot landing contest

ExperimentalAviator wrote:One thing i'v got from this site is (FWIW), if you want to use the brakes hard, dumping the flaps makes the tail heavy and not as likely to nose over

This is the number one reason I dump flaps while landing. I don't always do it. But when I want to land as short as possible I will dump the flaps immediately to make the tail heavier and apply maximum braking (if you do it right the tail stays off the ground until at a dead stop). This is with a taildragger of course. My experience is limited with tricycles but I would proably leave the flaps down for their aeodynamic braking since there's not a risk of nosing over with hard braking.

Whatever works. It isn't rocket science, no matter what people make of it, and I've never heard of droves of bent airplanes as a result.

For me, if I let getting stopped fast somehow become a critical factor (almost never is...the takeoff distance is generally the critical item for me), there isn't much comparison between the two. Unless the runway is ice or wet grass, getting rid of the flaps will let me use the brakes and stopped faster than keeping them down. Then again, I have to ask myself why stopping so fast became so damned critical in the first place when that happens.

With the trim tab all the way nose down and the flaps down, I can keep the prop and nose wheel happier for rougher spots.

In crosswinds above 25 to 30 mph straight across, the issue isn't touchdown at all for me. It is keeping the rollout uneventful as the rudder becomes useless. The flaps really do have an easily demonstrated impact on elevator and rudder airflow, and actually having enough traction to use the downwind brakes works along with aileron and power to keep things pretty boring for my passengers.

Either way, both are safe. On my Pacer, I will say that raising them wasn't even a distraction, and made braking on a wheel landing noticeably easier. I've flown nose wheels for almost a few decades now and am rusty at tail wheel work, but I still do both depending on the situation.

elgoatropo wrote:I agree with these wise words. In fact, the behavior I am criticizing here is this:

Automatically doing something that you saw a bush pilot do. Making it so automatic, that you assume it is the only way, to the point that you would be so bold as to dump someone else's flaps for them when they appear to have their hands full with the throttles and yoke.

As a young pilot, I pulled this trick on my boss in a BN2A Islander landing on a beach in moderate turbulence. He would have been justified in leaving me behind on that beach.

Actually, if true, he should have fired your ass, THEN left you on that beach.

MTV

55wagon wrote:"I agree with these wise words. In fact, the behavior I am criticizing here is this:

Automatically doing something that you saw a bush pilot do. Making it so automatic, that you assume it is the only way, to the point that you would be so bold as to dump someone else's flaps for them when they appear to have their hands full with the throttles and yoke."

Two different points here.
And that argument could be used on a ton of techniques and styles. I don't know any good pilots personally that put many regulations on how they do things "every single" time. Most pilots I respect and have learned from, when I ask them a question on how to, they typically respond with..... Ready for this....
"It all depends".
Kinda like asking an awesome cook for a recipe. There's usually not one written down. Lil of this, Lil of that is what you get.

I agree with you, Tex. In my original message, I said dumping flaps makes sense sometimes, but listed a few reasons not to do it automatically.
I appreciate the thoughts of this diverse group of fliers. Reading the responses has been food for thought, and dumping flaps in a taildragger when there is a concern of mains digging into a soft surface makes a lot of sense to me. To date, I have approached this challenge by carrying power to keep the mains light and tail high, allowing me to rotate back out if its too soft.

mtv wrote:

elgoatropo wrote:I agree with these wise words. In fact, the behavior I am criticizing here is this:

Automatically doing something that you saw a bush pilot do. Making it so automatic, that you assume it is the only way, to the point that you would be so bold as to dump someone else's flaps for them when they appear to have their hands full with the throttles and yoke.

As a young pilot, I pulled this trick on my boss in a BN2A Islander landing on a beach in moderate turbulence. He would have been justified in leaving me behind on that beach.

Actually, if true, he should have fired your ass, THEN left you on that beach.

MTV

Well, lucky for me, he liked the fact that I kept the mail moving, and he gave me a warning. I have extended the same courtesy to co-pilots who pulled my flaps or boost pumps without asking.

I have to agree with some of the experienced pilots who have essentially said that there is no one technique that would be correct for every airplane or every situation. I think that holds true for all of aviation.

"dumping" the flaps on landing does provide a few benefits that are frequently worthwhile, IMHO. Removing the "blockage" of air flowing back to the tail is one good example. Putting weight on the tailwheel for better steering is another good benefit. Putting more weight on the main wheels for braking is up for argument; on one hand you can possibly get more wheel braking, but on the other hand you are removing a good source of aerodynamic braking. Obviously this will be airspeed dependent. On some airplanes, in some situations, it can be a bad idea to retract flaps for safety reasons. On other airplanes, those safety reasons are not applicable.