Does anyone know if there is difference between an aircraft records request made via CARES (https://cares.faa.gov) and the traditional CD route (https://aircraft.faa.gov/e.gov/ND/)? Throughout my airplane search, I've noticed A LOT of planes with repairs/mods that are missing corresponding 337s on file with cares.faa.gov. When I bring it up to sellers, they don't seem to care and assure me "all paperwork is there". I suppose there could be physical 337s that were never sent to OKC (or lost, misfiled, etc)? But given how many times I've seen this, I doubt that's the case.

Possible explanations I've thought of:

1. cares.faa.gov is not representative of everything on file. And ordering the CD would show more documentation. Or, 

2. ~80 year old modded "bush" planes are bound to have paperwork issues.

Is this something that I should just sort out during the pre-buy process once I'm under contract?

Are you saying you are seeing a discrepancy between CARES and the CD you order? Or between CARES and reviewing an actual logbook?

…because there are plenty of old skool mechanics/owners, even if they are required, waive the bird at the Feds and don’t submit their paperwork.

There are also those owners who accidently “lose” an important old 337s that might tell a certain story.

Hard to believe, but after looking thru hundreds of logs, this happens more than one might think.

Good thread! Timely topic for us airplane searchers. Some thoughts:

1. The FAA only stores what they were sent. Installed a STC? Have to file a corresponding 337 to make record of the modification. A huge number of owners are completely ignorant of how it all works, so it’s up to the IA signing these things off to close the loop. They’re only human, paperwork gets lost, et al. Or like big renna says, they shine the part with the feds. Which is funny, because why play the regulatory hoop-jump game at all, then? Perhaps in their mind they feel they can still defend scrutiny if it’s constrained to the logbooks.

2. The discretion about what requires a 337 and a logbook entry often lies with the mechanic presiding over the aircraft (for right or wrong, some make an interpretation.) And sometimes the owner goes rogue and makes mods with no oversight. It should be reconciled at the next annual, right? All bets are off. The only thing close to a reckoning for legal maintenance and record keeping if the pre-sale inspection opportunity. This is often skipped by ignorant or optimistically trusting buyers.

3. Lost logs, total restorations, etc can give the illusion of wiping the slate clean. Only a thorough pre-buy guy with the ability to construct a forensic timeline (a big renna term) of an aircraft can unravel the sometimes twisted provenance of a specimen. But that’s only if anyone cares and you think all mods should be logged and recorded with the federal aircraft registry.

You make a good point though in distinguishing between CARES and ordering the CD…is there a difference in retrieval procedure? Is any on-demand scanning going on? Are any paper documents left undigitized at this point? It’s probably the most reliable component of the whole system as far as aircraft record keeping goes.

Bigrenna wrote:Are you saying you are seeing a discrepancy between CARES and the CD you order? Or between CARES and reviewing an actual logbook?

I'm wondering if there is any difference between the CD and CARES, because I'm seeing a discrepancy between how an airplane is being represented and CARES. I've never actually ordered the CD, but might have to for science. For example, an airplane I'm looking at was fully rebuilt and supposedly has a giant binder documenting the rebuild by a reputable shop. But there isn't a single 337 for the repairs on CARES (latest one is 23 years before the rebuild). I find this hard to believe. If I order the CD, would it have more info? It was recovered with PolyFiber, so at a MINIMUM, there needs to be a 337 for that STC. Not to mention all of the repairs...

Bigrenna wrote:…because there are plenty of old skool mechanics/owners, even if they are required, waive the bird at the Feds and don’t submit their paperwork.

There are also those owners who accidently “lose” an important old 337s that might tell a certain story.

Hard to believe, but after looking thru hundreds of logs, this happens more than one might think.

It has been eye opening for sure. Almost every airplane I've looked at has some degree of this going on. Is it worth it to pursue them further and try to get it all corrected once under contract (e.g. during a pre-buy)? Or should I just walk away? I used to just walk away, but it's surprisingly rare to find an airplane where a simple CARES search checks out. This is why I'm skeptical of CARES being comprehensive. Or perhaps it just comes with the territory for the category of airplanes I've been looking at. I am new to this.

Zzz wrote:1. The FAA only stores what they were sent. Installed a STC? Have to file a corresponding 337 to make record of the modification. A huge number of owners are completely ignorant of how it all works, so it’s up to the IA signing these things off to close the loop. They’re only human, paperwork gets lost, et al. Or like big renna says, they shine the part with the feds. Which is funny, because why play the regulatory hoop-jump game at all, then? Perhaps in their mind they feel they can still defend scrutiny if it’s constrained to the logbooks.

It is surprising to see how many owners are oblivious when I bring things like this up. My understanding is that it's pretty easy to fix a missing 337 when an STC exists. Assuming the airplane has STC authorization, an IA would just need to inspect and sign off on the installation by "persons unknown". Easy enough. I'm more concerned about airplanes that were rebuilt or have desirable or difficult to inspect non-STC'd mods which would require a field approval. Best case scenario would be that it was approved, but for whatever reason, the 337 copy never made it to OKC. That seems fixable. However, sellers usually don't want to dig through logs for me. All airplanes I've been serious about are not local, so maybe that's on me. I'm more than happy to travel to look at planes, but this seems like pretty basic due diligence that I can do remotely.

In the worst case, is it even possible to retroactively document a major repair? e.g. inspecting a full wing rebuild would require removing all fabric, right?

Zzz wrote:2. The discretion about what requires a 337 and a logbook entry often lies with the mechanic presiding over the aircraft (for right or wrong, some make an interpretation.) And sometimes the owner goes rogue and makes mods with no oversight. It should be reconciled at the next annual, right? All bets are off. The only thing close to a reckoning for legal maintenance and record keeping if the pre-sale inspection opportunity. This is often skipped by ignorant or optimistically trusting buyers.

In my opinion, it's logical to make sure the general story of the airplane makes sense by way of a records request. If that checks out, I take a look at the logbooks. I understand there is some discretion involved with what requires a logbook entry versus a 337, and I'm willing to play that game to a certain extent, but most stuff seems pretty black and white to me.

Upon further investigation... I now believe the CD is identical to CARES.

If you try to order the CD, the website will show you the number of pages you will receive. This matches the number of pages in the PDF downloaded from CARES.

Wow. I finally got access to CARES. They wanted a sample of flesh from my first born but I got in.

I have to say, this feels like one less barrier to what used to be some measure of privacy from public looky-loos. $10 was just enough to keep people's curiosity at bay.

FAA CARES is the same data you would get if you ordered the CD. The online system used to called EDRS II, it has been retired. CARES is the new system for online access. I use it constantly as a DAR.

It seems to be better for users than the prior system, once you set up your Login.gov account - which by the way is the same login account portal for all US government access needs like Social Security Admin, etc. One password and account works everywhere is what was published during the changeover. I haven't tried my DTOPS (decals) or eAPIS accounts yet, but the several portals I have to use all work that way.

And yes, a ton of stuff is missing, and its easily rectified if owners send in the missing forms found in the actual records. Garbage in = garbage out.

Zzz wrote:Wow. I finally got access to CARES. They wanted a sample of flesh from my first born but I got in.

I have to say, this feels like one less barrier to what used to be some measure of privacy from public looky-loos. $10 was just enough to keep people's curiosity at bay.

I believe there is a way to request that personal information be hidden. See: https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/faa-moves- ... nformation

dar636 wrote:FAA CARES is the same data you would get if you ordered the CD. The online system used to called EDRS II, it has been retired. CARES is the new system for online access. I use it constantly as a DAR.

It seems to be better for users than the prior system, once you set up your Login.gov account - which by the way is the same login account portal for all US government access needs like Social Security Admin, etc. One password and account works everywhere is what was published during the changeover. I haven't tried my DTOPS (decals) or eAPIS accounts yet, but the several portals I have to use all work that way.

And yes, a ton of stuff is missing, and its easily rectified if owners send in the missing forms found in the actual records. Garbage in = garbage out.

Great to know, thank you!

You got me thinking about this now because I just bought a plane recently and instinctively did what I always do, I requested a title search from one of the companies that has been doing this forever.

So after reading this thread I went to CARES and downloaded their info 2 ways. Individually for registration and airworthy documents, and also using the DOWNLOAD ALL REGISTRATION HISTORY DOCUMENTS.

Both downloads had the same information, so at least their system is working correctly there. Then I clicked on REQUEST A COMPLETE COPY and it opened to the typical CD request page. That's where I noticed that it has the page count of items so I went back to the downloaded files and the ones sent from the title search company and they're all the same.

So with this information I believe that :

1- paying a title company search is wasting money because they apparently just go to CARES and get what you can get online
2- paying the $10 for the CD is also a waste of money because you can get the same paperwork instantly on CARES.

So that clears up any doubt regarding using a title company vs ordering a CD vs CARES, for this type of paperwork search.

Now regarding "1. cares.faa.gov is not representative of everything on file..." part, it seems to be everything they have on file, but it doesn't help with the fact that some paperwork isn't at the FAA or in some logbooks because humans store, hide, or destroy some paperwork, so we still have to do those in depth pre-buy inspections.

My experience with the last 4 pre-buys I did since my search began about 6 months ago for my next new-to-me plane, is for another time, but please, to all who read this, do a really good pre-buy with a very knowledgeable mechanic with experience in the model you're buying. Don't settle for using any mechanic !

Oh, man....aircraft records........ talk about a can of worms! An airplane arrived at a maintenance outfit recently, a Super Cub. Has some kind of automotive "landing light" bolted to the gear, a mystery oil cooler, a left side window that wasn't made by Piper, etc, etc, NO paperwork. Mechanic has been working to resolve all this stuff, that was (maybe) installed by the owner, and may or may not actually say "airplane" on the parts.

A good (and smart) mechanic will refuse to sign off such a plane for annual/100 hour until everything is properly documented as legal, per the FARs. But, lots of little stuff, and some bigger stuff, often get passed along....don't ask, don't tell: "Wasn't on there when I signed that logbook, Mr. Inspector".

Then there is the "chain of custody" (sorry, old law enforcement term) of the data that the mechanic submits to the FAA. Ever wonder where that stuff actually goes? I'd bet it sits on someone's desk for a month variable to four years in some cases.

All speculation, of course, but the advice offered in this thread is golden, and following it can save a buyer a LOT of angst, and maybe money.

I just bought a 1970 P206E in OH last Wednesday. I have all the logs. It was N registered at Cessna when they issued the original FAA Standard certificate, and was immediately exported to Japan for contract work. It returned to the US and the current Standard was issued in 1997.

The FAA records start in 2021 when it was modified and inspected for a Restricted AW certificate and are accurate up to today, but there is nothing in CARES or anywhere else under the original N Number or any other. The Export certificates are serialized, I have that number but my local FSDO inspector couldn't find a copy anywhere. What is supposed to happen is that old files are merged and traceable under the aircraft serial and model info but here is a case where that didn't happen or work. So I have a FAA records gap from 1997 until 2021. I don't see any evidence that anything major happened during that time frame, but I am in the process of logbook reviews over that gap to make sure I can answer any questions for the day I'll eventually sell it. 10 years from now with any luck.

So just another data point for the discussion, Cheers-