I was told this weekend by a friendly ND State Park Ranger that it is against the law to land an airplane on "federal land". In this case, it was Army Corp of engineers land. And also ND state park land. Any one know where the regs regarding landing on Corp, BLM, Grasslands, Forest service land, etc. might be found? Perhaps they have forgotten that "fat tires" is how the west was won!

I'd just let him keep believing that, I hope you agreed with him! So, that'd mean, what 70 % or whatever of the total US land mass is fed owned (taxpayer) is unlandable? Leaving private, city, and state? I think not, but I will not be checking the regs anytime soon.

Are you actually asking the question or venting? It is often hard to tell, no offense

Best advice is to do as you just did - talk to the ranger connected to the land in question. It is a sad circumstance in our modern age that the world of federal regulation is complex and finding the right reference on your own can be difficult

As for broad brush strokes...not sure about North Dakota, but nationwide his statement would only be partly true. Plenty of federal land where you can land off-airport. Other federal land where that might not be allowed but wheere there are open designated airstrips.

Not to dispute any of the posts one way or the other...a lifelong friend of mine is a land manager for the Corps out of Omaha...I will call him tomorrow and see what he has to say or if there is a written policy.
HC

That statement "That it is illegal to land an airplane on federal land" is decidedly NOT accurate. That said, many federal lands do carry a restriction to landings other than at established airstrips. As Once and Futr says, though, it can be a complex task and often you find that the answers are not very consistent. Further, there are a LOT of dumb shit federal personnel who think they have the answer, but who don't have a clue in matter of fact.

As was noted, for THAT PARTICULAR area of federal land, the guy may be right. In fact, there are probably more federal lands where aircraft landings off airport are prohibited than ones where they're allowed (outside of Alaska, that is). But, you really have to find someone in the agency who really knows the answer specific to that area, or in some cases, someone high enough in the agency to be able to specifically cite the regulatory prohibition.

Most, if not all NPS and FWS lands in the lower 48 are closed to airplane landings. National Forest lands in my experience, you will get varying answers, but anything with a wilderness designation is going to prohibit aircraft landings OFF AIRPORT.

BLM prohibits off airport landings on some of its units that are designated as Monuments, for example the Upper Missouri Breaks National Monument.

Point is, this is a very complex topic.

In Alaska, on the other hand, off airport landings are pretty much permitted, with few exceptions. But, again,t ehre are a few exceptions.

Ask before you land, is the best policy. BUt find someone who can give you SPECIFIC and supported information.

MTV

MTV wrote:

Most, if not all NPS and FWS lands in the lower 48 are closed to airplane landings.

As I recall the specifics can be found in 36 CFR. If memory serves me landings of any aircraft (including helicopters, planes, balloons, sailplanes, etc) are by permission only. Permission would typically come from the Chief Park Ranger or Superintendant at an NPS location.

I am reminded of the time when a Denver news chopper (a Hughes 500) landed on the tundra in Rocky Mountain National Park, and one of the gung ho rangers strutted down to the pilot and threatened to cite him. Sheesh: a polite reminder would have been more than enough. Let's face it: the weight of a Hughes 500 isn't going to do any permanent damage to the tundra, and the rotor wash wouldn't be any worse than winter winds. But sometimes power goes to a guy's head and he gets off showing who's the boss of the mountains.

Eric

PA12_Pilot wrote: But sometimes power goes to a guy's head and he gets off showing who's the boss of the mountains.Eric

After 29 years working for the government. You get the understatement of the day award.

Rob

Nope, 14 CFR is the Federal Aviation Regulations, and they do not contain any guidance on which lands/waters are open or closed.

The CFR title for each agency is different. For example, USFWS is generally covered by title 36 CFR and title 50 CFR. Every agency has its own set of regulations.

Again, this is a complex question, and there is no easy "general" answer.

Best bet is to talk to the unit manager if in doubt. That is the UNIT MANAGER, not some knob that may be a seasonal type and not know from up.

Landing a helicopter on a federal conservation unit is generally going to elicit a ticket, unless specifcally authorized. This regulation is intended to prevent the air tour industry from starting to land everywhere they'd like. And, don't believe for a moment that there wouldn't be helicopters landing all over that park if it weren't for those kinds of regs. Then, the touroids get their testosterone levels in an uproar, and demand that ALL aircraft be banned from the face of the planet, cause their pristine vacation was spoiled by that noisy thing intruding.

In all seriousness, however, there are often good reasons to prohibit aircraft and helicopter landings on conservation units. Not always, by any means, but sometimes.

MTV

You're right Mike, it's not 14 CFR - I think it's 36 CFR: Parks, Forests, and Public Property. As a ranger we were required to record the relevant CFR, including title number, on every citation we wrote. In my six years as a knob, as you call them, I might have written five citations, which probably explains why I forgot the right title. I found that instead of whipping out the citation book I got a lot more mileage out of explaining to Granny why we don't go digging up the tundra plants for our rock garden back home in Kansas.

I am not sure if you are talking about landing on an airstrip on federal land or just landing. As for old airstrips, I just spent the last three weeks in the Book Cliffs area in South Eastern Utah hunting and looking at 9 old strips. I stopped by the BLM office twice in the last two weeks to talk to them about using the strips that were on my map.

The first time I stopped the girl told me that they consider a strip on BLM land open if it is used every two or three years, she couldn't remember which. She told me that one of their people was a pilot and he would fly to a lot of the old strips to keep them open. When I asked about the Forest Service and State lands she said they usually follow BLM's lead. She said I might have a problem using a strip in a wilderness area because I really couldn't leave the strip. She told me that if it is on the map and in good condition, I could probably use it.

I went back the second time to buy BLM maps and make sure the strips on the Benchmark Maps were on the BLM maps. Most were and there were others that weren't on the other map. Looks like they are a lot more relaxed around here than in a lot of places.

Jerry

Talked to my Corps friend...no landing on Corps property unless it is designated landing strip.
HC

Jaerl wrote:I am not sure if you are talking about landing on an airstrip on federal land or just landing. As for old airstrips, I just spent the last three weeks in the Book Cliffs area in South Eastern Utah hunting and looking at 9 old strips. I stopped by the BLM office twice in the last two weeks to talk to them about using the strips that were on my map.

The first time I stopped the girl told me that they consider a strip on BLM land open if it is used every two or three years, she couldn't remember which. She told me that one of their people was a pilot and he would fly to a lot of the old strips to keep them open. When I asked about the Forest Service and State lands she said they usually follow BLM's lead. She said I might have a problem using a strip in a wilderness area because I really couldn't leave the strip. She told me that if it is on the map and in good condition, I could probably use it.

I went back the second time to buy BLM maps and make sure the strips on the Benchmark Maps were on the BLM maps. Most were and there were others that weren't on the other map. Looks like they are a lot more relaxed around here than in a lot of places.

Jerry

That answer you got has so many errors it's hard to know where to start. Never ask one agency about anothers rules. As far as the BLM goes it is irrelevant how many landings are made in a given time period. The runway is either open or it isn't. The Forest Service does not remotely follow BLM's lead on airstrips on non Wilderness land, much less anything in the Wilderness. Many strips are still listed on Sectionals in the Wilderness areas but you are not allowed to use them except in an emergency and then you most likely will have to take it apart and carry it out of there.

I'd agree that you definitely DO NOT want to listen to a receptionist (or even a LE officer) for one agency about another agency's regulations.

I thought we were discussing OFF AIRPORT operations initially at least, and that's where my comments were directed.

Remember also that agencies such as the BLM hold many lands that have no specific conservation designation. Those same agencies may have lands that fall into a conservation unit of some kind. MOST conservation units have much more specific, and generally more restrictive rules than do those lands in the more general category. THis is where BLM started squeezing in the Upper Missouri Breaks. There had been airstrips there for decades (most created by BLM) and no problem using them. But, when Congress established the Upper Missouri River Breaks National Monument, the BLM was required to go through a public process to develop regulations for that area. In the process, a bunch of folks who've probably never seen the place and probably never will tried to convince the BLM that airplanes should be banned and those strips should be closed. A lot of campaining by pilots has convinced BLM for the moment at least that those strips should stay open.

Point is, that area has been under BLM management for decades, with no restrictions. As soon as it became a conservation unit, suddenly it came under scrutiny and regs were forthcoming.

And, there are a lot of folks back east, in Kalifornia, etc, who never get off a paved street, but who think airplanes and other machines should NEVER be permitted on THEIR federal lands.

It's up to us to change those regulations, or prevent them from happening, as was the case with the Missouri Breaks.

MTV

Any one know where the regs regarding landing on Corp, BLM, Grasslands, Forest service land, etc. might be found? Perhaps they have forgotten that "fat tires" is how the west was won!

Mark,

I don't know how to talk to the corp, but I'm sure you know where the Game and Fish Dept headquarters are.

The only corp land I know of that is landable would be Missouri river sand bars and Lake Sakakawea beaches, most of the islands are now under water. Most of those sand bars and beaches have signs that state no ATVs, that could include airplanes. I know around the big lake ATVs are not allowed along the lake shore, doesn't mean people aren't riding them there anyway.

The sand bars in the river along Washburn have signs that state no landing of boats, no people, no dogs, etc. Probably includes airplanes. They are nesting grounds for the Piping Plover. I'm all in favor of saving the Plover. But early morning and again every evening the corp increases water flow through the dam for power generation and several of those sand bars and signs are under water. I don't believe the plover nests can withstand that flow of water.

I would like to land out in the grasslands. But now there are signs stating no off road vehicle traffic of any kind. That leaves landing on the roads, on scoria. There you can talk to the rangers in Waterford City and get an answer. But the Game and Fish has their little rule that we can't hunt where we have flown an airplane in the last 72 hours. They will let pigs chase game down with pickups, but don't use an airplane for transportation if your hunting on foot, stupid rule.

Bill

mtv wrote:I'd agree that you definitely DO NOT want to listen to a receptionist (or even a LE officer) for one agency about another agency's regulations.

I thought we were discussing OFF AIRPORT operations initially at least, and that's where my comments were directed.

Remember also that agencies such as the BLM hold many lands that have no specific conservation designation. Those same agencies may have lands that fall into a conservation unit of some kind. MOST conservation units have much more specific, and generally more restrictive rules than do those lands in the more general category. THis is where BLM started squeezing in the Upper Missouri Breaks. There had been airstrips there for decades (most created by BLM) and no problem using them. But, when Congress established the Upper Missouri River Breaks National Monument, the BLM was required to go through a public process to develop regulations for that area. In the process, a bunch of folks who've probably never seen the place and probably never will tried to convince the BLM that airplanes should be banned and those strips should be closed. A lot of campaining by pilots has convinced BLM for the moment at least that those strips should stay open.

Point is, that area has been under BLM management for decades, with no restrictions. As soon as it became a conservation unit, suddenly it came under scrutiny and regs were forthcoming.

And, there are a lot of folks back east, in Kalifornia, etc, who never get off a paved street, but who think airplanes and other machines should NEVER be permitted on THEIR federal lands.

It's up to us to change those regulations, or prevent them from happening, as was the case with the Missouri Breaks.

MTV

I have no idea if BLM has uniform rules across their lands in other states but here in Montana, outside the national monument, you can land where ever you want on BLM land that isn't specifically closed to vehicle traffic. The BLM makes no distinction between the types of vehicles. Many hunters from this area fly up for the day to hunt deer/elk/goats, etc. They simply land where they want to hunt and have at it. Some camp overnight, some don't.

Flat Country Pilot wrote:
I would like to land out in the grasslands. But now there are signs stating no off road vehicle traffic of any kind. That leaves landing on the roads, on scoria. There you can talk to the rangers in Waterford City and get an answer. But the Game and Fish has their little rule that we can't hunt where we have flown an airplane in the last 72 hours. They will let pigs chase game down with pickups, but don't use an airplane for transportation if your hunting on foot, stupid rule.

Bill

Where does it say that? All I can find is this from the ND hunting regs.

21. Aircraft, Boats, Motor-Driven Vehicles

Aircraft, snowmobiles and motor-driven vehicles may not be used to kill, chase or harass wild birds or animals. In addition, aircraft may not be used to spot game and snowmobiles may not be used to flush wildlife.

It is illegal to shoot with bow and arrow or firearm while in or on a motor-driven vehicle.

It is illegal to carry a firearm in or on a motor-driven vehicle with a shell in the chamber. The entire cylinder of a revolver is considered the chamber, requiring the revolver to be completely unloaded. It is illegal to carry any muzzleloading firearm in or on a motor-driven vehicle with a percussion cap on the nipple or powder in the flash pan.

It is illegal to drive motor-driven vehicles off established roads and trails unless hunting waterfowl or cranes. Except for persons having a special disability permit, no person may use a motor-driven vehicle while in the process of hunting small game (except waterfowl or cranes) or aid another in the process of hunting small game (except waterfowl or cranes) including travel to and from a hunting location unless the motor-driven vehicle is on an established road or trail. Exception: A landowner or a lessee who actively farms or ranches the land, or a person having written permission from the landowner or lessee, may use a motor-driven vehicle off of an established road or trail to hunt small game except during the deer gun season.

Mallard Island and deTrobriand Island within Lake Sakakawea are closed to the use of all motor-driven vehicles and aircraft. On all other wildlife management areas owned or managed by the Department, the use of all motor-driven vehicles is restricted to those constructed roads, well worn trails, and parking areas normally used by passenger cars. Motor-driven vehicle use on wildlife management areas is further restricted or prohibited where posted as such.

Established roads or trails do not include temporary trails made for agricultural purposes.

No person may use motor-driven vehicles on North Dakota Game and Fish Department Conservation PLOTS (Private Land Open To Sportsmen) property without permission from the landowner, or as otherwise signed by the Department. These areas have been entrusted to the public for walking access through written agreements with private landowners. The boundaries of these properties are identified by large yellow triangular signs.

All firearms must be unloaded and encased while traveling within the boundaries of a national park.

Motorboats are legal for going to and from hunting areas. Ducks, coots, mergansers, geese, and tundra swans may be taken from a floating craft, excluding a sink box, if such craft is either beached, fastened within or tied immediately alongside any type of fixed hunting blind, or resting at anchor. It is illegal to shoot from a sunken device or any floating vessel on open water, or to use or cause to be used any floating battery, electric, steam, gasoline, or other powered vessel in an attempt to take waterfowl. A motorboat, sailboat, or other craft may be used to pick up dead or injured birds.

All watercraft must have aboard a U.S. Coast Guard approved life preserver for each occupant. Additionally, any watercraft powered by any motor (including electric motors) must be registered and numbered (licensed) through the North Dakota Game and Fish Department, or for nonresidents - through the state where principally used.

Jaerl wrote:The first time I stopped the girl told me that they consider a strip on BLM land open if it is used every two or three years, she couldn't remember which. She told me that one of their people was a pilot and he would fly to a lot of the old strips to keep them open. When I asked about the Forest Service and State lands she said they usually follow BLM's lead. She said I might have a problem using a strip in a wilderness area because I really couldn't leave the strip. She told me that if it is on the map and in good condition, I could probably use it.

"umm...can I talk to your supervisor, miss?"

14. Aircraft, Motor-Driven Vehicles, Lights

* It is illegal to use aircraft for spotting game 72 hours prior to and during the hunting season. A licensee cannot hunt the same day they are airborne over their hunting unit with the exception of their scheduled passenger airline flight. It is illegal to drive, concentrate, rally, raise, stir up, spot or disturb game with aircraft.

once&futr_alaskaflyer wrote:14. Aircraft, Motor-Driven Vehicles, Lights

* It is illegal to use aircraft for spotting game 72 hours prior to and during the hunting season. A licensee cannot hunt the same day they are airborne over their hunting unit with the exception of their scheduled passenger airline flight. It is illegal to drive, concentrate, rally, raise, stir up, spot or disturb game with aircraft.

That doesn't sound like a 72 hour throttle to hunting rule to me. That's 72 hours after I am up spotting game. And this appears to only affect big game. The passage I copied was from upland game. As I read the reg I can fly in one day and hunt big game the next, as long as I didn't use my plane to spot game. And then only if I am airborne over the same unit. So if I didn't fly over my hunting unit I can step out of the plane and go hunting.

Bonanza Man wrote:

once&futr_alaskaflyer wrote:14. Aircraft, Motor-Driven Vehicles, Lights

* It is illegal to use aircraft for spotting game 72 hours prior to and during the hunting season. A licensee cannot hunt the same day they are airborne over their hunting unit with the exception of their scheduled passenger airline flight. It is illegal to drive, concentrate, rally, raise, stir up, spot or disturb game with aircraft.

That doesn't sound like a 72 hour throttle to hunting rule to me. That's 72 hours after I am up spotting game. And this appears to only affect big game. The passage I copied was from upland game. As I read the reg I can fly in one day and hunt big game the next, as long as I didn't use my plane to spot game. And then only if I am airborne over the same unit. So if I didn't fly over my hunting unit I can step out of the plane and go hunting.

Yeah, how it is written indicated to me that spotting game from the air is illegal period, beginning 72 hours before the hunting season to the end of hunting season.

And then the typical "same day airborne" restriction in the same game unit as you say.