Hi all,

Short version:
I can't seem to find a plane. How'd you find yours?

Long version (backstory plus more-elaborated question):

I've been semi-actively (buying via a loan, and living in a village most of the time...makes it hard to really actively get to brass tacks and buy up a plane) trying to rustle up a plane since, oh, january. I've had a long string of various close calls...one, the owner was getting maintenance done (good, honest owner!) and it kept dragging on and on, was a combination of a mechanic who didn't communicate super well what was going on and a surprise engine overhaul...so after a few months, we (lady and myself) decided to move on. Next, it's March. Que up the pa-12. Yes, it probably was a little bit too much airplane (I didn't even have my taildragger rating! I figured, we could get the loan, buy the plane, and I could do my tailwheel training in it. Brilliant right? Yeah...turns out I was a little bit too excited and a little bit unknowledgeable about the airplane-loan process). Fast forward to another pa-12, late May now. Real beauty, engine purred like a happy cat, semi-recently (1997) re-built from the ground up. The owner was an older veteran, lots of good old stories that made me want to both laugh (the happy ones) and cry (a few sad ones), long time mechanic & cub builder, full of grit, as honest and trustable as a man can get. Paid him a holding deposit (at this point I did have my tailwheel rating), took the plane to a cub shop for a pre-buy...15m later the mechanic gave me a list of something like half a dozen glaringly obvious points of legal non-airworthiness. Gave me a guestimate of 15-20k for the first annual to get it airworthy. Ouch. I can't bring myself to believe that he had malicious intent. Just can't. But at the same time, the plane was not what I had been led to believe it was. Returning the logs and keys to this man was very, very very uncomfortable and sad. Ok. Now I'm jaded and non-trusting. Zoom forward to a few weeks ago, and I get interested in a little taylorcraft. Really looks solid. I try my absolute damndest to not get excited..but I do, a little bit. The owner seems really great, honest, good willed, et cet. I go through with scheduling a pre-buy (three weeks out. That's ok...I definitely see how important those are now), getting the loan process rolling again, title search, et cet. Go look at it in person with a friend who's very knowledgeable about t-crates...almost a guaranteed no-go. I'll wait for the pre-buy (this weekend), but it looks dismal at best.

So here I am. I'd like an airplane. I'd rather not get to a point a year down the road and say to myself "golly gee, how has it taken me a year and a half and I still can't find an airplane?" I don't feel that I'm overly picky (we've looked at citabrias, pacers, pa-12's, tcrates, 172's, 170's, and others), finances aren't a huge issue..our upper limit is 40k (we definitely would like something more like 30k, but 40k is acceptable. so I think looking at pa-12's was probably a bit silly). While we do have to take out a loan, flying is important to both of us, and we both have fair paying jobs.

It seems that not having cash to pay with makes it quite a bit more difficult. But I can't help but feel that I've had bad luck....OR....

maybe I'm doing something all wrong in the search? I've been dumber'n a brick before, no reason there's not something I'm being dumber'n a brick about now.

Which leads me to the full version of the question...

Happy (or unhappy!) airplane owners: how did it happen for you? How did you come across the bird? When you took the plunge, was it all roses and cherries, or did you have large initial struggles? How long have you been with her for? Is there any way to truly know what you're getting into? Do pre-buys actually give you the info you need? Is a reliable plane for 30-40k just not going to happen? Did you start long-distance, e.g. find/buy in another state? Long distance opens up SO many more possibilities, but seems far more risky.

I would love to hear your stories . Hopefully hearing how it did/didn't work for other folks could give this rookie (and hopefully other rookies!) a better idea of how to find a plane.

Happy skies, and thanks!



dave

PS/Edit:
I forgot, the mission. We live up in northwest AK & there are two primary goals. (1) is to get out and fly around. Explore, joyride, et cet. Grocery runs to anchorage would be a bonus of a 172/170/pacer, but are not the priority. (2) have something the lady can enjoy practicing in..she's got ~10 hours in a 172. So anything complex or generally more difficult to fly is out. A third, less important but still significant goal: start learning backcountry flying technique.

Dave,

My story is very similar to yours, it took me over a year to find the one I wanted. I would suggest getting the financing in order as much as possible very early in the process. I too had several disappointments with planes that I got very excited about only to find out that the log books did not exist, or very vague to the point the plane wasn't legal. Found several that when I went to look at them they were not as advertised, which will knock the wind out of your sails leaving you very discouraged.


Just keep looking and asking lots of questions and you will eventually find the one you can't live without. Good luck with your search!

Wes

If you are looking at planes based in Alaska then 30,000-40,000 is going to get you what you have found so far in you're search. Unfortunately, there are a lot of ramp queens and planes that have been the subject of one to many 700.00 dollar "looks good from here" annual inspections, at least that was my experience when I lived in Unalakleet and started looking for my first plane. So, I ended up looking at planes in the lower 48 and found (at the time 2004ish) that a comparable plane could be found for 15,000 - 20,000 less and not have been exposed to years of sub-zero artic weather.

I ended up getting just what I was looking for, a 1956 172, converted to TW and 180hp. It's was a lot more work, making calls to find a good A&P to do the pre-buy and travel of course, but i'm still happy with what I got. It is possible to find a good bird in Alaska, but I bet the one you want, that is in good shape and has been well maintained is going to cost you more.

Chris

It's a pain in the ass (Zane said we can cuss now) fur sure.
One problem I see are people shopping out of their price range. If you have 30-40 k you are not going to get a nice pa-12. People make this mistake allot in my opinion. Example. A new cub is 150k or more. People show up to look at your 60k cub and are surprised somehow that the fabric is old or the engine is high time. It seems to be super rare in aviation to get a legitimate "good deal." Usually you are paying what the airplane is worth. If you see some machine for half the going rate is probably needs at least that amount in parts alone to bring it up in the range of its more expensive counterparts.
Also it's really had to find an airplane and research what to know and look for when you are considering so manny different airplanes. Weather it's a 172 cub citabria or whatever u really need to narrow it down.

Story one. I did pre buys on about 5 Cubs for a fellow. Tell my buddy everything I see wrong and what they will need mechanically. Well I probably scared him off on every one. Calls me up a month later. Bought a super cub!! One I had not looked at friend of a friend plane. Bigger pile then all those previous piles but together!!! He's happier this a pig in poop with it. Flew it over a 100hrs the first year. It's not perfect but it's an airplane and it flys sooo what more do you need??

Story 2
I bought my 182 without even taking the cowling or a panel off. Gave him a check and flew it home on the first flight. I'm one picky IA mechanic one I do pre buys but kinda a kid in a candy store with a checkbook when it come to airplanes.

Schwarz wrote:Dave,

My story is very similar to yours, it took me over a year to find the one I wanted. I would suggest getting the financing in order as much as possible very early in the process. I too had several disappointments with planes that I got very excited about only to find out that the log books did not exist, or very vague to the point the plane wasn't legal. Found several that when I went to look at them they were not as advertised, which will knock the wind out of your sails leaving you very discouraged.


Just keep looking and asking lots of questions and you will eventually find the one you can't live without. Good luck with your search!

Wes

Thanks Wes - encouraging . I can now see the wisdom of getting financing in order and keeping it that way.

slowhawk wrote:If you are looking at planes based in Alaska then 30,000-40,000 is going to get you what you have found so far in you're search. Unfortunately, there are a lot of ramp queens and planes that have been the subject of one to many 700.00 dollar "looks good from here" annual inspections, at least that was my experience when I lived in Unalakleet and started looking for my first plane. So, I ended up looking at planes in the lower 48 and found (at the time 2004ish) that a comparable plane could be found for 15,000 - 20,000 less and not have been exposed to years of sub-zero artic weather.

I ended up getting just what I was looking for, a 1956 172, converted to TW and 180hp. It's was a lot more work, making calls to find a good A&P to do the pre-buy and travel of course, but i'm still happy with what I got. It is possible to find a good bird in Alaska, but I bet the one you want, that is in good shape and has been well maintained is going to cost you more.

Chris

Hmm. I have been avoiding the down-in-the states shopping, but I'll give it a closer look. Thanks for the wisdom. It's nice to have a perspective from nearby!

PAMR MX wrote:It's a pain in the ass (Zane said we can cuss now) fur sure.
One problem I see are people shopping out of their price range. If you have 30-40 k you are not going to get a nice pa-12. People make this mistake allot in my opinion. Example. A new cub is 150k or more. People show up to look at your 60k cub and are surprised somehow that the fabric is old or the engine is high time. It seems to be super rare in aviation to get a legitimate "good deal." Usually you are paying what the airplane is worth. If you see some machine for half the going rate is probably needs at least that amount in parts alone to bring it up in the range of its more expensive counterparts.
Also it's really had to find an airplane and research what to know and look for when you are considering so manny different airplanes. Weather it's a 172 cub citabria or whatever u really need to narrow it down.

Story one. I did pre buys on about 5 Cubs for a fellow. Tell my buddy everything I see wrong and what they will need mechanically. Well I probably scared him off on every one. Calls me up a month later. Bought a super cub!! One I had not looked at friend of a friend plane. Bigger pile then all those previous piles but together!!! He's happier this a pig in poop with it. Flew it over a 100hrs the first year. It's not perfect but it's an airplane and it flys sooo what more do you need??

Story 2
I bought my 182 without even taking the cowling or a panel off. Gave him a check and flew it home on the first flight. I'm one picky IA mechanic one I do pre buys but kinda a kid in a candy store with a checkbook when it come to airplanes.

Yeeeeah. I can now see the folly of trying to find a gem of a pa-12 for 40k. . Definitely not realistic. Could a good-condition light two-seater (tcrate, champ, j-3, 140/120, luscombe...) could be had for 30k-40k? I had actually specifically avoided narrowing down, mostly to afford myself more flexibility in the searching/buying process. Trying to keep options open..I guess I had been thinking to sacrifice some pickiness for the chance of getting a plane sooner. A well respected mechanic/pilot around here told me "the best plane is the one with the damn wings on it!" . However...especially if I consider getting one down in the states...narrowing down sounds prudent.

Jump on Barnstormers and find something you want. worry about where it is later. It's an airplane, it has wings, it can fly to where you want it to be.

I live in Texas (and Alaska shortly), bought my 185 from California and my SQ2 from Alaska.

Here's a 2-seater that might suit your finances (just did a quick search) and it's in Montana.

http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_1029242_1966+C-150+TW.html

Dave, for your flying and price range, and ease of getting parts and stuff fixed if things get dinged, you'd be hard pressed to go wrong with a 150 HP Pacer. Under 30K gets you a nice airplane with plenty of mods available if you want 'em. It's not a Super Cub, but for dinking around out of Nome and hitting a gravel bar or beach now and then it does fine. And, flown properly slow, it's docile enough for your GF to learn to fly in.

http://www.barnstormers.com/Piper,%20PA ... ifieds.htm

Gump

PS: Got the PMs, I will send a note in the morning.

I met my IA before I ever took a lesson. After that it took six months of looking at planes before he approved a plane for me to buy. The important thing is to learn to walk away!!!!!! Don't fall in love until the IA approves of the plane. There are so many things that can burn you on buying a plane that will do what you want. Bang for the buck a pacer is hard to beat. A big tire 182 will haul a load and go a lot of places. I will PM you my number give me a call when you get a chance we can chew the fat on the fine points.
DENNY

I know there are several "Ramp Rats " around NOME -1 particular 182 . If your going airplane shopping look for something you can afford -and afford to fly-. I think most popular airplane in Alaska is Cub or Super cub -there after Cessna 180 . Most have been rode hard and put up wet so check the airframe ,engine mounts and engine /prop very closely. Airplanes in lower 48 will be less costly to buy -but then you have 2-3 thousand mile delivery to you. All my airplanes are free and clear of payments and have insurance .80-100 mile trips are ok in slow cub type airplanes but longer trips can be done better in a 120-150 mph airplane. Experimental are ok except that every flight your the test pilot. Have a STEADY 2 year income(or more) 3 times the cost of "air machine 2015" . We like to sell airplanes to Alaska (and delivered 5) as we like the adventure and people there use them more than the lower 48.

Re pre-buys & annuals: it may be that your inspectors are setting their sights (and yours) too high.
An airplane must be airworthy, but it doesn't need to be perfect. There are many airworthy yet less-than-perfect airplanes out there. Perfect would be nice, but perfect airplanes are few and far between-- the reason being is that perfect is expensive. Good enough is much more affordable. For $30K, you are not gonna find a perfect airplane. You can however find a "good enough" airplane. Pacers are out there in that price range, and if set up right are just right for what your mission seems to be-- including grocery runs.