Hi All,

Just got back from a fly-in in Northern Minnesota (nearest airport is KORB).

It was my first backcountry frozen lake landing in my Musketeer A23, or any plane for that matter.

I was a great time and the plane did great in 3-5" of snow.

I’m posting this on a couple of forums that I belong to, so excuse me because it’s long. But I think it is an interesting tale.

Being an aircraft mechanic & avionics tech for many years I have wanted to get an airplane for my own and explore this great land of ours. I had settled on needing a four seat plane because I need to haul things & people around with me.

A coworker of mine found a 165hp ’65 Beech Musketeer A23 that needed some work but was sold at a great price. Being a King Air mechanic I have come to appreciate the Beech way of designing aircraft so I bought the small Beech. At that time I had about 150 hours in a Tomahawk and 30 hours in a Warrior.

When I first flew the Beech I had a hard time with making my customary greased landings. Come in a little fast and it floated and skipped down the runway. Come in a little slow and there wasn’t enough air going over the stabilizer to keep the nose up for a proper full stall flare. Trying to work out this problem I reweighed the aircraft and found that it was so nose heavy that the only way to get the CG behind the forward limit was to put 140lb of water ballast in the baggage compartment. This worked until it started to get hot, and I was having more trouble getting out of the 2,600’ grass strip I was based at. I called Beech and found out they had made a kit to put a 10lb weight at the tail tie down area. I installed the kit and reweighed the plane. Problem fixed! The CG is right in the middle with almost any loading. And now it does beautiful full stall greased landings.

After fixing the CG problem I became very impressed with the slow flying characteristics of the small Beech. At grouse weight and 10* of flaps it flys beautifully right down to the bottom of the white arc (40 knots). And if you are a little lighter it floats around happily under the white arc!

Because I was flying off of grass I installed 6x6.00 tires on all three stout trailing link gear. With the larger low pressure tires and slow flying capability I started to think about flat land back country flying. To be honest my Beech has the “L” of STOL pretty much nailed; but it needed a lot of work on the take-off portion. My prop is very much a cruse prop and with this I still only go an honest 100 knots. My usual flight leg is around 200nm so I didn’t want to give up any more speed by getting a climb prop. Seeing that there wasn’t much I could do with the plane I focused on the pilot.

I read F.E. Potts’ “Guide to Bush Flying” and learned how to use the Johnson bar flap to minimumize the ground run and max out the initial climb. The effective flaps of the small Beech really work well with this technique and the plane seams to levitate off the ground in a level attitude. With 90 hours in the Beech I now thought I had a semi-STOL plane that could start to test the waters of back country flying.

Because I live in Minnesota I naturally thought starting with flying off of frozen lakes to be a good introduction to back country flying. I have previously flown off of snow covered runways and knew I could handle up to 5” of fresh snow with my 17.5” tall tires. But it would take a longer ground run. I tried to find an instructor to teach me how to fly off of frozen lakes but found none.

So yesterday I went to a ski plane fly in by Orr, Minnesota (KORB) on Bell Lake. I knew the snow depth was ~3” on ~15” of ice and there would be people there if I got into trouble. So I thought this would be a good place to start as any.

I used Google Earth to find Bell Lake because it wasn’t on my Garmin 396 (with XM weather and land maps). But Moose Lake was, which is just south west of it. In hind sight I should have placed a waypoint on where Bell Lake was in the 396 because there are a lot of lakes in Minnesota and they look a lot alike from the air.

Because Bell Lake is 200nm straight north from Minneapolis where I’m based and because fuel is over a dollar cheaper in the cities I filled my 60gal tanks up with only me, covers, and survival gear onboard. I had five hours of fuel plus a 45 minute reserve when I took off from Flying Cloud (KFCM).

I got a great tail wind and my ground speed was 140 knots going north and made the 200nm in 1:45. I flew to Orr (KORB) then started to look for Bell Lake.

Did I mention that the lakes look a lot alike? I flew over a few lakes and ice fishing houses then spotted the fly-in. Turned the plane for a downwind to a south landing and spotted another plane that was couple miles ahead of me on downwind.

I fallowed his line on landing by the western side of the lake and did my usual angle of descent taking account of the tall pines that lined the lake. But even with full flaps by the time I gotten to the snow I was over half way down the lake looking at a line of planes in front of me. I decided it was time to go to plan B and went to full power and 10* of flaps and did a max angle climb out to the south east. The wind was 150 at 11 gusting to 16 so I’m sure that from the ground my plane looked like it was floating in the air because my climb out airspeed was only ~50 knots.

Back on final I thought I had to take things into my own hands and try to land as close to the north shore of the lake as possible so to maximize the time I had to slow down to a nice full stall flare. So I decided to do a full flap, engine at idle 55 knot approach which is my normal short field speed at the weight I was at. But what was very different is usually the angle of decent is much less and I’m on the power being behind the power curve.

“So there I was…”

I had placed myself well so my angle of decent would clear the tail pines at an airspeed of 55 knots. But I hadn’t taken into account that it was an overcast day with flat light. And as I was getting close to the lake I had a windshield full of flat white snow! I couldn’t judge my height above the snow very well so as I passed the pines I started my round out to a flare. I ended up flaring a little too soon because the plane unhooked about a foot above the snow and I came down with a firm plant into the snow. Then it was a simple ½ throttle taxi to the other planes.

The take off was better…

That is when I got my plane unstuck.

From my parking spot I taxied a few yards then stopped to watch the other planes take off. When I tried to start going again I was stuck! Getting out of the plane I found I had stopped just at the edge of a snowmobile berm. So I pushed the plane back a few feet and started again. I powered through the little berm and on to the northern corner of the lake. I didn’t want to slow down so I thought I would use a float plane trick I read about (I’ve never been in a float plane. Sad, I know.); I continued to add power as I turn from a north heading to a south west heading fallowing the western shore and took off using my flap technique to get into ground effect and climb out at Vx.

I turned around and gave a wing wave and started heading south back to Minneapolis at a ground speed of 85 knots in moderate turbulence. It took me 2:15 to get back. But I felt very good with what I had accomplished. I had my first back country outing in a plane that no one would think of using.

I think I’ll keep this Beech for a while. While I look for a Maul M-4 or M-5, Aeronca Sedan, or Stinson 108.

I hope you have liked this story, and please give me your feedback.

-Todd Giencke
[email protected]

I got more pictures of this Todd that I'll post later. I think you had everybody's attention with the Musketeer on that lake!

I was wondering how it went getting out of there and which way you departed. West?

The departure went very well.

well...

First I got stuck by a snowmobile "berm" when I stopped taxing to watch the others take-off.

I got out and pushed the plane back a few feet and started again.

Then I was thinking... don't slow down taxing to the north corner. Got to the corner and acted like I was a float plane (which I'm not float rated) and did an accelerating turn to fallow the west shore. Got to 40knt and pulled in 10* of flaps and popped into ground effect. Then it was an easy Vx climb to the west. I turned around gave a wing wave goodby.

Tomorrow I'll confess about the approach...

Todd Giencke

I got the approach on tape...

Glad you came Todd!

Brad

I am envious of you guys, wanted to come. We are planning a trip to the cabin but could not get away until February 1st. Will be driving right through Orr on the way to the Dryden area. Keep up the pictures, would love to see the video. By the way, we are getting our first snow right now, 2-4 inches forecast. Steve

Please do post any of the video of me!

It would be good to see my errors. Get feedback and learn from them.

-Todd Giencke

Very cool--props to you for giving it a go.

I bet everyone thought you were leaving after the go-around!!

Todd, put a flat prop and some 800 X 6 tires on that Mouseketeer and turn it into a real backcountry airplane! Sounds like it'd do just fine.
Nothing wrong with running a flat or "climb" prop. You don't have to give up much (or any) speed- you can cruise at about the same speed if you just turn it up an extra hundred rpm or so. You won't hurt the engine, it won't be working as hard due to lower manifold pressure.
"Climb" verus "cruise" props: my philosophy is that I'd rather be 5 minutes late arriving somewhere than 10 feet too low on climbout over trees. Nuff said.
Good thinking checking the W&B, and congrats on a good solution. Seems like Beech kinda goofed that one up a bit, at least they came out with a factory fix.

Eric

I'll put it in the MN Ski (ha - skis, it's been a bit short of the white stuff this year) Flying 2007 DVD. I looked at the footage today and I was using the still camera on your first approach - only caught a few seconds of film before you decided to add power and go around. Got the go around though.

I've got time in B-19's and B-23's (we used to throw a case or two of oil in the aft baggage to get them out of forward CG). Sounds like you're figuring the thing out. I agree on the power prop!

Um... Where can I find "MN Ski Flying 2007 video"?

TIA

Todd Giencke

You have to wait until May and I'll send you one

The only time I've ever heard someone griping that thier prop is too flat was in an extreme case- such as a seaplane prop or something like a 76-45 prop on a 170.
I have heard people gripe many many times that their airplane just won't takeoff/climb/turn up due to too much pitch. But when you suggest re-pitching a bit flatter, it's all about "but I don't want to go slower". Life itself is a compromise- like I said, I'd rather be a bit late than too low at the wrong time. I run a 76-51 on my 170.
A lot of times, a flatter prop will actually increase real-life speed. Sometimes the prop has so much pitch the engine just can't turn up enough to get up to speed unless you do the old climb-too-high-then-dive routine.

Eric

Todd, when doing a short field departure the 'floatplane turn' you describe, on land is a J turn departure and should if possible be done to the right, so you can add full power at an earlier point and not have to counteract P factor. This departure will get you off quicker than the traditionally taught system of sitting in one place with brakes on till engine is full power then brake release, as this disturbs the first maybe 20 feet of important air in front of you. With the J turn to the right, you are moving the downthrust blade into clean steady air.
Jeremy

I noticed a lot of that "J-turn" action in the long rocks big props video(s).

zero.one.victor wrote:The only time I've ever heard someone griping that thier prop is too flat was in an extreme case- such as a seaplane prop or something like a 76-45 prop on a 170.
I have heard people gripe many many times that their airplane just won't takeoff/climb/turn up due to too much pitch. But when you suggest re-pitching a bit flatter, it's all about "but I don't want to go slower". Life itself is a compromise- like I said, I'd rather be a bit late than too low at the wrong time. I run a 76-51 on my 170.
A lot of times, a flatter prop will actually increase real-life speed. Sometimes the prop has so much pitch the engine just can't turn up enough to get up to speed unless you do the old climb-too-high-then-dive routine.

Eric

I found that to be true with the K-A Champ. Whan I had two inches of pitch removed from the prop - 44 to 42 inches - it got faster. With 44 inches, the throttle was wide open in cruise, getting only around 2350 rpm. After the change, I can pull the throttle way back and still get 2400 or better.

She tools along at around 88-90 mph quite easily. It would be faster if I cleaned up some of the draggy things - gear legs, for example. I have 8.50 tires, too.

Jon B.

Jon you should have been up at the Bell Lake deal. The place looked like a used Champ sales lot circa 1953. I was surprised Eric didn't wear a loud checked sports coat and have a flashing neon sign that said:

AERONCA

A-E-R-O-N-C-A

AERONCA

BRD wrote:Jon you should have been up at the Bell Lake deal. The place looked like a used Champ sales lot circa 1953. I was surprised Eric didn't wear a loud checked sports coat and have a flashing neon sign that said:

AERONCA

A-E-R-O-N-C-A

AERONCA

Yeah but...

Brad, I fly a Champion not an Airknocker! Also, if it looked like 1953, I couldn't be there, as the K-A Champ is a '58 model.

With the shorter days in winter, I sometimes have to pass on these events as I can't get back home before it's way dark. On wheels it's not so bad; I have lights (no beacon or strobe, though). On skis, I don't want to come home in the darkness and land in the weeds. I wanted to go to Warroad last year but it's about 2.5 hours one way, more if the wind comes up. I'd have to lift off at sunrise (or as soon as it's light enough) and then head for home by about 1300.

I hope to be at Aitkin, Elbow Lake and, if Gene has another gathering at Island Lake, that too. I went to Winsted on the 13th.

Jon B.

Hey Todd,

Thanks for the story! No matter how many hours I put in I always learn from somebody relating something they did.

Another bump from yesteryear.

Hi Zane, found your site here back in 2005 while searching wheel skies. Always wondered what the first posts where like the first week of operation. Any chance of a snapshot of the first week or two? 46tcrft