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Backcountry Pilot • First Galloping Ghost Lawsuit

First Galloping Ghost Lawsuit

Debrief, share, and hopefully learn from the mistakes of others.
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Re: First Galloping Ghost Lawsuit

Littlecub wrote:Soo.....
You go to an event where big chunks of metal are zooming around the sky at high rates of speed......
and you are sitting 'almost' underneath. You saying people can't put 2+2 together and recognize they are assuming some risk??????? Folks, HAVE WE GOTTEN THAT STUPID???

lc

Say, for example, your wife and kids were killed while traveling down the interstate at 70mph with hundreds of big chunks of metal zooming around them at high rates of speed. You then consult a lawyer who tells you a certain other driver was at fault. Would your response really be to walk away because your wife and kids assumed the risk of death or serious bodily injury? Perhaps, but I doubt it. I think you'd do what 99.9% of every other person in this country would do and that's to hire a lawyer and seek redress in court. I'm not suggesting anyone was negligent in the air race accident. At this point none of us really knows. Nor am I suggesting the spectators did not assume a certain level of risk. But, obviously, the plaintiff has received legal advice from someone more knowledgeable than any of us to the effect actionable negligence was involved and that the right to recover damages will not be negated by an assumption-of-risk defense. As a result, the plaintiff has a right under the law to try and prove negligence and damages to a jury in court. If the claim proves to be without merit, the plaintiff will rightly recover nothing. If the claim is deemed frivolous by the court, the plaintiff will not only recover nothing but may under Nevada law also be required to pay the defendants' costs and attorney fees. However, if the jury determines the accident was caused by someone's negligence, the plaintiff will rightly recover, which is how it is and always has been under our system of law. In my 34 years as a lawyer, I've seen our jury system work well in the vast majority of cases. So, I trust the right result will be reached in the inevitable flood of cases stemming from this year's event. Blame lawyers if you like (I guess that's the simple, easy thing to do), but understand they're simply doing what the law requires of them, which is to zealously represent their clients within the bounds of the law. If you don't like the law, contact your legislator and work to have it changed. Of course, that'd mean you'd be unable to sue and recover from the negligent driver who killed your wife and kids.
48RagwingPilot offline
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Re: First Galloping Ghost Lawsuit

dprathe wrote:
Littlecub wrote:Soo.....
You go to an event where big chunks of metal are zooming around the sky at high rates of speed......
and you are sitting 'almost' underneath. You saying people can't put 2+2 together and recognize they are assuming some risk??????? Folks, HAVE WE GOTTEN THAT STUPID???

lc

Say, for example, your wife and kids were killed while traveling down the interstate at 70mph with hundreds of big chunks of metal zooming around them at high rates of speed. You then consult a lawyer who tells you a certain other driver was at fault. Would your response really be to walk away because your wife and kids assumed the risk of death or serious bodily injury? Perhaps, but I doubt it. I think you'd do what 99.9% of every other person in this country would do and that's to hire a lawyer and seek redress in court. I'm not suggesting anyone was negligent in the air race accident. At this point none of us really knows. Nor am I suggesting the spectators did not assume a certain level of risk. But, obviously, the plaintiff has received legal advice from someone more knowledgeable than any of us to the effect actionable negligence was involved and that the right to recover damages will not be negated by an assumption-of-risk defense. As a result, the plaintiff has a right under the law to try and prove negligence and damages to a jury in court. If the claim proves to be without merit, the plaintiff will rightly recover nothing. If the claim is deemed frivolous by the court, the plaintiff will not only recover nothing but may under Nevada law also be required to pay the defendants' costs and attorney fees. However, if the jury determines the accident was caused by someone's negligence, the plaintiff will rightly recover, which is how it is and always has been under our system of law. In my 34 years as a lawyer, I've seen our jury system work well in the vast majority of cases. So, I trust the right result will be reached in the inevitable flood of cases stemming from this year's event. Blame lawyers if you like (I guess that's the simple, easy thing to do), but understand they're simply doing what the law requires of them, which is to zealously represent their clients within the bounds of the law. If you don't like the law, contact your legislator and work to have it changed. Of course, that'd mean you'd be unable to sue and recover from the negligent driver who killed your wife and kids.


You're right,If I bump into you with my car my insurance is to pay. If I run into you with my plane same thing. I think as pilots we don't like to see lawsuits flying after a tragic event but somebody's gotta pay.
Glidergeek offline
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Re: First Galloping Ghost Lawsuit

This is not personally directed at Glidergeek, but at the general idea...he just happened to use the words that triggered my response.

***CAUTION: rant ahead***

Glidergeek wrote: I think as pilots we don't like to see lawsuits flying after a tragic event but somebody's gotta pay.


That is where I take exception...why does someone always have to pay? When do we take responsibility for our own actions? Welcome to the 99%. I can understand obvious negligence or gross negligence, but when it is an accident I have a problem with "somebody's gotta pay". What happened to personal responsibility? I have life insurance in place to take care of my family should something happen to me...enough to cover any unpaid debts and allow my wife to not have to work for the rest of her life provided she manages it correctly. If there is an insurance policy from an involved third party that will help her as well then even better, but either way she can get on with life without dragging the accident out any further through lawsuit.

If I were to have been one of those that perished at Reno she would have no "need" to file a lawsuit therefore any suit she filed would be simply out of greed. On the flipside, if I did not have that insurance in place she would have a "need" for that money, but I would be that somebody who should have paid as it was my responsibility to take care of my family and it was my negligence that caused her situation. We are all going to die at some point and nobody knows when or how. Will it be of old age, medical issues, flying accident, or at Reno.? For me it doesn't matter, my family will be financially sound whether or not "somebody's gotta pay" because I took the responsibility to pay instead of expecting someone else to do it for me.

***This concludes my rant; we now return you to your regularly scheduled program***
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Re: First Galloping Ghost Lawsuit

I don't occupy the "someone's gotta pay" camp. For me it's: Legal duty + breach of legal duty + causation + damages = liability. And, here, it may be that any recovery will be diminished by a proportionate share of the risk assumed (though I'm not familiar enough with Nevada law to know one way or the other). No matter what, though, I truly hope the accident does not result in termination of the air races.
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Re: First Galloping Ghost Lawsuit

Say, for example, your wife and kids were killed while traveling down the interstate at 70mph with hundreds of big chunks of metal zooming around them at high rates of speed.

In my opinion, the interstate is a lot different than the Reno air races. When you're at the races, you know you're living on the edge and I've never had the urge to attend. Hopefully they are not shut down for those that like living on the edge. Now, as for the stray jet into the casino, I'd have a problem with that.
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Re: First Galloping Ghost Lawsuit

All these ad nauseam arguments about torts and our rights to redress of wrongs are a lot like the Greek sovereign debt crisis. It's fine I suppose in some sort of abstract way to make a guy rich overnight because his wife and children are dead. If you can. But what about the poor slob whose wife and kids drown in a flood? Why can't he be rich overnight too? Didn't his family enjoy a reasonable expectation of safety in their own home? Where is this grieving husband and father's redress? Our system of law sets limits on his ability to sue; and correctly I think. He cannot sue because the law says there is nobody to sue. Life is not perfect. In fact life is full of surprises.

That's what we knuckle draggers are talking about here. The system cannot be sustained when awards are market driven rather than related to actual loss. My comparison of tort law to a national monetary crisis is not trivial. The current practice of tort law has become a system for the redistribution of wealth. Unfortunately the wealth at risk here does not exist "ex nihilo", it has to be raised. It is in this little detail that the problem lies.

When Lloyds was established way back as a way to spread risk amongst the merchants who shipped goods by sea it was set up to cover loss of cargo and ships. It was not set up to protect anyone from all harm. It was not set up to pay anyone for emotional injury. When losses exceeded the amount set aside by the merchants to cover themselves, then it was better luck next time. If capitol gains did not exceed capitol loss for these renaissance merchants they would have ceased their activities. Think about the implications of that equation.

So then, by parity of process let's look at the GG crash. What is to be gained by this public entertainment? What is the risk of loss? What is the ratio? Think about it. I submit to you that unless we reign in awards to actual loss; reign in our willingness to sacrifice the public good to an individual's pursuit of unearned gain, then the inevitable result will be a collapse of the activity. Along with that collapse of activity comes a loss of freedom. Tocqueville warned us of this with his concept of the "tyranny of the masses". These lawyers know this full well, but they choose to be voluntary participants in an atrocity. They say it's not their problem, they are just following orders. But, make no mistake, they are in the restraint of freedom business, not the business of protecting the poor huddled masses.
Have a nice day.
Last edited by Emory Bored on Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: First Galloping Ghost Lawsuit

IMHO the answer is balance, like almost anything else in the universe. We do need to accept responsibility for our actions. But "we" equally includes Jimmy Leeward, RARA, each and every one of the spectators, the mechanic who built the airplane, the race safety inspector who let him take off with a trim tab not good enough for 500 MPH (if that is indeed one of the root causes), etc.

Some of these arguments center on one side taking responsibility or another. Why does that have to be?

It is reasonable to assume that an air race fan has to understand that the racers are experimental to the bone, things do happen, and even an experienced pilot can indeed lose control. It is reasonable to assume the spectators must understand that sitting less than three seconds away from an experimental racing airplane going that fast greatly increases their risk of getting hurt. it is also reasonable to assume a spectator did not go to the race thinking he would be killed. But that spectator cannot escape the fact they willingly went to be up close and personal with something involving that much kinetic energy.

It is likewise equally reasonable to ask that RARA take responsibility for having taken reasonable precautions. Being negligent by turning the other cheek at some glaring safety problem is bad faith. But by the nature of air racing there are limits as to what they can do regardless of how hard they try. The crucial point here is that IMHO a freak accident like this could happen if RARA put the spectators half a mile away, or inside the course, or moved the grandstands over to the other side of the field.

About the only thing that RARA might have done differently is had stricter safety requirements on the aircraft. If all these rumors are true about the trim tab and/or flutter of the tab being the central point of this tragedy, and if it is true that the trim tab problem was known in advance because of Hanna's previous incident, then RARA as the governing body had an opportunity to do something that might have prevented this tragedy.

I can only speak for the Formula One racing at Reno, because that's the only type of Reno racing I did. But there were very clear safety requirements. When I had a new composite wing built for the airplane, I had to go out and put 6G on a recording G meter in front of the race safety committee. I had to dive test the airplane to 10% over Vne, again in full view of the committee. They had the authority to tell me to go do it again if it "didn't look fast enough" to them. (This was very memorable to me now, even 25 years later, because there was no room in the cockpit for a parachute) We had to demonstrate several low altitude aileron rolls, stopping inverted and rolling out the other way to simulate a wake turbulence upset. My good friend Roger Sturgess, a quirky Englishman who was a graduate of the old school engineering apprenticeship system at DeHavilland aircraft (think David Copperfield with a slide rule) had absolute authority to inspect, poke, pull, bend and shake anything in the airplane, and a simple shake of his head for any reason meant I would not be flying my aircraft in front of the spectators. At least three others (a Northrop aero engineer Stu Luce, another English aero engineer named Bill Rogers, and Dean Carrier an old B-17 driver ) could also stop me from flying at any time.

I wonder if the unlimited racers had or have that level of safety oversight. I knew a couple of UL racers, and it would be very difficult for some engineer to tell them they couldn't race that year because something on the airplane didn't meet the engineer's opinion of adequate safety. You don't get to be a multi-millionaire by being compliant with anyone else's rules... you get that way by breaking everyone else's rules, working around the rules, or sabotaging/destroying/sandbagging the people who are trying to regulate you and keep you from becoming a millionaire. So imagine some aero engineer with his pocket protector and little round glasses walking up to Alan Preston (successful businessman, 3 tours Viet Nam special forces, testosterone meter pegged 24/7) and saying that Alan couldn't fly that day because the engineer wanted more beef on the trim tab control horn.

F-1 had a history of updating and strengthening their safety requirements after any incident. Roger Sturgess warned the group that the clipped metal race propellers were going to break at 4000 RPM. Sure enough, a couple of them did. One incident was caught on film, a Cassutt racer glided back safely with the engine hanging two feet under the airplane by the safety cable. So they changed the rules to ban metal props. Guess what... no more engines have been torn off the mounts in F-1.

So if there had been an incident where a trim tab broke and put 9G on an airplane, and only luck sent the airplane up instead of down... you can bet your ass that the F-1 organization would have instituted some safety parameters for the trim tab.

Now all that (and more not mentioned) was for the little F-1 airplanes that were going half the speed of the unlimiteds, with 1/10 of the weight. That's many many times less "destructive force" than an unlimited Mustang.

So there is at least one scenario where RARA, or whatever safety inspection team they use, could have prevented this tragedy, and the racers' egos, or some other factor, was allowed to prevail and they just let the Mustangs fly with a known safety issue. That is something that the average spectator didn't bargain for.
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Re: First Galloping Ghost Lawsuit

lowflybye wrote:This is not personally directed at Glidergeek, but at the general idea...he just happened to use the words that triggered my response.

***CAUTION: rant ahead***

Glidergeek wrote: I think as pilots we don't like to see lawsuits flying after a tragic event but somebody's gotta pay.


That is where I take exception...why does someone always have to pay? When do we take responsibility for our own actions? Welcome to the 99%. I can understand obvious negligence or gross negligence, but when it is an accident I have a problem with "somebody's gotta pay". What happened to personal responsibility? I have life insurance in place to take care of my family should something happen to me...enough to cover any unpaid debts and allow my wife to not have to work for the rest of her life provided she manages it correctly. If there is an insurance policy from an involved third party that will help her as well then even better, but either way she can get on with life without dragging the accident out any further through lawsuit.

If I were to have been one of those that perished at Reno she would have no "need" to file a lawsuit therefore any suit she filed would be simply out of greed. On the flipside, if I did not have that insurance in place she would have a "need" for that money, but I would be that somebody who should have paid as it was my responsibility to take care of my family and it was my negligence that caused her situation. We are all going to die at some point and nobody knows when or how. Will it be of old age, medical issues, flying accident, or at Reno.? For me it doesn't matter, my family will be financially sound whether or not "somebody's gotta pay" because I took the responsibility to pay instead of expecting someone else to do it for me.

***This concludes my rant; we now return you to your regularly scheduled program***


I agee 100% I am in the personal responsibility camp with you! I pay pretty good money to make sure my loved ones are taken care of when I check out!
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Re: First Galloping Ghost Lawsuit

dprathe wrote:I don't occupy the "someone's gotta pay" camp. For me it's: Legal duty + breach of legal duty + causation + damages = liability. No matter what, though, I truly hope the accident does not result in termination of the air races.


Probably important to point out that the formula shown above does not include the words emotion, opinion, or differentiation in applicability depending on personal preferences....

In a society that obviously demands to be told exactly how much risk it assumes by getting out of bed in the morning (and have that risk clearly defined, in writing, where possible) it's hard to imagine anybody leaving the house or getting out of bed. I am pretty sure that the major line of plaintiffs counsel is negligence on the part of all named. IIRC the killed pilot held a medical certificate, was not the youngest - and may have been unconscious during part of the exercise, so I am wondering if the certifying AME will be charged as well. I wonder what you think the final amount sued for will be? My uneducated guess is it will settle somewhere well beyond 200MM.

A judgment or settlement may well take the whole shebang down for good, that's what I am afraid of. The big names may well refuse to insure such events in the future. Then there is no accounting for how many tag along s will file a suit just to recover something (physical & emotional distress, post traumatic stress...) and how and when (not if) much stricter regulations will be adopted to compensate for any regulatory downfall, if proven.
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Re: First Galloping Ghost Lawsuit

America, during its ascendancy, was where the preponderance of people believed in and 'lived' self improvement by way of hard work, long hours, education, study, sweat, saving for the future, assumption of risk, investing in land, equipment, ideas, research, etc....... In other words-"Noble Ambition" made the land of opportunity what it became.
Now, today, the preponderance of the population wants to bypass those characteristics of individual/personal success by reaching into the pockets of those who have 'attained some wealth' by way of government redistribution of wealth-in all its many forms-AND lawsuits for injustices or perceived injustices (trumped up or real) and I see lawyers as having led the charge with their ambulance chasing and heavy advertising to fish for clients.
Yes I know some people are wronged, and things need to be righted, but a severe overpopulation of greedy, ethically challenged lawyers has leveraged attitudes in America by their heavy advertising budgets during daytime TV when the "ambition challenged' are home on the couch, plus when obscene settlements are reached the media is happy to trumpet it from the whole media choir....
Lawyers, by way of their causing the need for crazy expensive amounts of insurance on the "Doers" and the "maker/builders" of society, have become a non-producing severe LEACH on society-and the economy. Half or more of the cost of a 'new' 40 year old airplane is the cost of insurance for the life of the airplane ( and its parts makers must be covered, too, at all the many levels).
The word 'ambition' has become seriously tainted by unprincipled fast talkers/takers in many professions and occupations. Lawyers have certainly led the way.
Yes, America has a lot of problems, but this has 'greased the skids' to facilitate arriving where we are today.

Just more observation,
lc
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Re: First Galloping Ghost Lawsuit

A skydiving friend of mine put this pic on his FB page. More signs like this need to prop up around the U.S.
Bottom lines say: "IF YOU DO NOT ACCEPT THE TERMS FOR ENTERING THIS PROPERTY, DO NOT ENTER. BE SAFE, HAVE FUN.
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