How do you judge your aircrafts capabilities?

Fish lake Id, I want to go there.

I see 100HP crafts have gone there.

I am not questioning whether I can make my craft perform, but am questioning whether my craft is suited to go there.

150HP Pa-28..............I know its not the best craft for the mission.

Reading the POH is one thing, but the POH doesn't take in to account all the variables.

It looks very doable. but man, the nerves on take off, how can I feel more at ease?

I know you'll recommend instruction, but I am looking for info on how you judge your crafts capabilities. Do you use the POH, or previous experience?

Thanks

Vitz

If your asking the question then your not ready to venture out very far. Go find a quiet little nearby airport, practice low power take offs. Try this at various weights and temps, write down your results. You wont need to ask others what your plane will do because you will know.
Besides airplanes are like girls, there are no two that perform the same and there all lots of fun.
Oh and don't forget you need to practise the landing stuff too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMmHYWjE ... re=related

We go to Fish Lake several times a year, one of our favorite spots. As per the Forest Service Reader Board at the cabin at Fish Lake, there are 5-6 airplanes at the bottom of the lake along with at least 8 bodies. The condition of the strip has been deterioting over the years. Big whoopie doos, large pot holes, Yes, 100 or less hp can go in there. I would go in a 65 hp Champ or J3 Cub, but I wouldn't bet my life on a PA 28. It is the wrong plane with the wrong wing. It would just not work, in my opinion. The places you need to go first, after you practice at your home base and other nearby grass strips, Smiley Creek, ID, 7,000' elevation, Indian Creek, ID, Johnson Creek, ID, and Moose Creek, ID. These will all give you a good taste of why you shouldn't go into Fish Lake, ID. If you ever see Lori McNicholas (McCall, ID) or one of the local 135 guys, ask them to give you some dual in a PA 28, maybe into Fish Lake. See what they say! It is a great place, the winds pick up every day about 10 a.m., creating a tail wind take off over water in cold sinking air. I've seen my friends in lightly loaded 185's, questioning whether they can get out of there in above conditions.

About those airplanes at the bottom of Fish lake, ID.
If they are there, they are silted over, as in completely! My cousin had a bee in his bonnet to see if any of those (reported) aircraft were salvable. He roped me into the adventure and I 'recruited' my two sons, so we had 4 divers...... Well, we used 2 planes to fly in SCUBA gear (etc) and had a whole day planned to find and figure out what it would take to salvage what we found (after all, everybody 'knew' they were there, right?). It took half a day to cover (systematically-grid search) the bottom, and we couldn't find so much as an Al scrap! (excluding beer cans) This was probably 12-15 years ago, and the Forest Service is compulsive about wreck removal anymore, so.......Good luck treasure hunting. The 'treasure' is the location, it is a beauty.

Oh, and more on topic, I have been in and out with a 90hp cub on a warm fall day with two aboard.....(I did weigh less then )
And pilot-wise....well, I am nothing special......(but I have fun at it!)

lc

Edit: The 90 hp cub has a flat (climb) seaplane prop on it since I used to put it on floats in the summers.

mr scout wrote:If your asking the question then your not ready to venture out very far. Go find a quiet little nearby airport, practice low power take offs. Try this at various weights and temps, write down your results. You wont need to ask others what your plane will do because you will know.
Besides airplanes are like girls, there are no two that perform the same and there all lots of fun.
Oh and don't forget you need to practise the landing stuff too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMmHYWjE ... re=related

Ouch! Classic force-it-on, too-high-speed, forget about the flare, wheelbarrow landing. Also on occasion practiced in a Mooney. The only fix is an immediate go around on the first boing. With the Mooney anyway, the 3rd bounce is where you test the landing surface with the prop.

mr scout wrote:If your asking the question then your not ready to venture out very far. Go find a quiet little nearby airport, practice low power take offs. Try this at various weights and temps, write down your results. You wont need to ask others what your plane will do because you will know.
Besides airplanes are like girls, there are no two that perform the same and there all lots of fun.
Oh and don't forget you need to practise the landing stuff too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMmHYWjE ... re=related

Thanks for your input Mr. Scout.

Although I am not asking you to judge my capabilities, I am asking how you judge your aircrafts performance capabilities based on density altitude and runway condition.

I have been in to my fair share of tight places at higher altitudes. I do reference the POH performance data, and I'm often either surprised at the amount of performance or the lack there of.

I am guessing most of you just use your experience to judge your takeoff distance. I have been to close to the trees at the end once, and I hope that doesnt happen again.

Little John wrote:We go to Fish Lake several times a year, one of our favorite spots. As per the Forest Service Reader Board at the cabin at Fish Lake, there are 5-6 airplanes at the bottom of the lake along with at least 8 bodies. The condition of the strip has been deterioting over the years. Big whoopie doos, large pot holes, Yes, 100 or less hp can go in there. I would go in a 65 hp Champ or J3 Cub, but I wouldn't bet my life on a PA 28. It is the wrong plane with the wrong wing. It would just not work, in my opinion. The places you need to go first, after you practice at your home base and other nearby grass strips, Smiley Creek, ID, 7,000' elevation, Indian Creek, ID, Johnson Creek, ID, and Moose Creek, ID. These will all give you a good taste of why you shouldn't go into Fish Lake, ID. If you ever see Lori McNicholas (McCall, ID) or one of the local 135 guys, ask them to give you some dual in a PA 28, maybe into Fish Lake. See what they say! It is a great place, the winds pick up every day about 10 a.m., creating a tail wind take off over water in cold sinking air. I've seen my friends in lightly loaded 185's, questioning whether they can get out of there in above conditions.

Litttle John, Thank you. That is quite the warning. So Did the 185 guys POH performance chart make him concerned, or was it previous experience?

Thanks again

Paul

Fish Lake can be the most humbling airstrip I fly into. I camped there when I was a kid and now with my family. If you depart there on a clear, calm and cool morning when the grass is short it's a safe strip for most any airplanes and one would question why it gets such a bad reputation. However, I have been there many times when any combination of wet long grass, tail winds, and warm and humid air diminishes take off performance by an alarming level and even my P-ponk 182 mushes out of there like a heavy 172. It also has some wallows that are pretty rough and I wouldn't want to do it in a PA-28. POH manuals don't factor in the loss of energy from rough wallows or patches of tall wet grass. They also don't factor the sudden down draft experienced when you get over the water. Beautiful spot though!!!

66skylane wrote:POH manuals don't factor in the loss of energy from rough wallows or patches of tall wet grass. They also don't factor the sudden down draft experienced when you get over the water.

Exactly!!!

I knew before hand that the pa-28 is not going to be popular with the backcountry crowd, a bunch of high wing lovers.....just kidding. I think I can go most places that a 172/170 can go, aside from wing clearence on the side(s) of the runway.

Its been a couple years since I have been to a mountain flying seminar, sounds like attending another one is in my best interest.

Thanks

Paul

Hey Paul,

I agree with 66skylane. Fish Lake is an awesome airstrip, and camping spot. That said, it is a one way airstrip with a high DAs during the season. The mosquitoes can be thick until that first frost and is sometimes snowed in well into June.

It seems like the Forest Circus people are doing a marginal job at best maintaining the airstrip. They cut a narrow swath of grass once a year and new saplings are encroaching on the airstrip. Ground squires are really damaging the west end of the airstrip reducing the usable runway. Also the Forest Circus does not allow shooting ground squirrels on the airstrip. This policy is enforced by FS volunteers that can range from local pilots to wolf loving Sierra Club/eco terrorist types and everything in between.

With your Piper Cherokee, I’d recommend the nearby Moose Creek airstrip. It is much longer and located at a lower altitude. The cutthroat are bigger in Moose Creek anyway.

Good luck,

James
Spokane

James?
Hope you have had fun shining up the bottom of those ski's!
How does the F Circus regulate the shooting of ground squirrels??
I would think that the F&G would be the regulators of that pastime?
Just an Ignorant Question.
GT

James?
Hope you have had fun shining up the bottom of those ski's!
How does the F Circus regulate the shooting of ground squirrels??
I would think that the F&G would be the regulators of that pastime?
Just an Ignorant Question.
GT

Hey George,
Good to hear from you. The Forest Circus has the Fish Lake Airstirp posted no shooting. With my luck I'd end up having my plane confiscated, and land in jail. Some of those volunteers are real knotheads too.

James

I read the regulations the F Circus had posted at some airstrip, but I can't remember which one. I do remember the highlights though, and one of them was that you couldn't discharge firearms around any developed area, then they gave examples such as campgrounds and AIRSTRIPS!

It stands to reason that one could use an air rifle instead, both from a technical standpoint since it isn't a firearm, and from a social standpoint because it's fairly quiet. I have one that ought to be effective up to almost 50 yards, and it's about as loud as hitting a nail with a hammer. Because it's so quiet, it doesn't "disturb the peace", and it's very safe because it loses its little energy rather quickly. Personally, I think it would be a public service for pilots to whack a few ground squirrels on each airstrip by whatever means are available. The human activity keeps away the predators, so the rodents multiply to what I believe are unnatural levels.

Fun Stuff!

(The "No Shooting" sign that you guys are talking about is cut-off in the lower left corner)

RedWolfPacer wrote:
Fun Stuff!

(The "No Shooting" sign that you guys are talking about is cut-off in the lower left corner)

I think no shooting signs make great targets :snack:

As for judging aircraft performace at FL, throw the book in the garbage as there are just too many variables such as wind, wet grass, mud, sometimes standing water, etc. If I had any question or that little voice in my head making me uncomfortable, I'd wait until I knew without a doubt I had the performance to depart safely. It is a judgement call and unless you trust yours enough to know, don't try it. My take off performance is on par or better than a C-185, and my last take off at FL surprised me. It took a lot longer to lift off than I expected.

Last summer I spent two nights at the airstrip and another backpacked into Two Lakes. I've been going into FL for the past 20 years or so. I used to always see lots of deer, moose and some elk. Last year - nothing. There was wolf scat everywhere on the ridges above the strip. I only saw a few cipmunks. We certainly heard the wolfs; several very impressive rounds of howls, barks, yelps, etc. I'm curious if others have seen any large animals around the area. I left with the thought that the wolfs had pretty much wipped most of them out.

It was the same at Moose Creek - no deer when in the past at dawn and dusk there were always lots of whitetail on the strip.

To feel at ease at takeoff, I *now* do two things at strips that are marginal for my plane:

1) I use a small pair of binoculars to look at the grass/brush/treetops/whatever at the sides and far end of the runway and for the next quarter mile beyond to look for wind conditions. I took off once, hit a downdraft, went into a tailwind right after that, bent some metal, and I would prefer not to repeat the experience.

2) I use the 70 / 50 rule to determine my last possible abort point, then adjust it back for obstacle clearance, runway conditions, etc. (The 70 / 50 rule says that you must attain 70% of your takeoff airspeed by the time you reach the half-way point). On a short strip I will occasionally take about a foot of toilet paper, lay it in the middle of the runway at my last possible abort point, and put a few pebbles on one end to hold it in place, so I can easily see it while looking straight down the runway. I've never aborted a takeoff since I started doing this, but it gives me great comfort to know that I can.

Maybe too gadgety, but one of these seems like it would be a good addition to the onboard gear:

http://www.opticsplanet.net/rangefinders1.html

Just get a high performance experimental and don't worry about takeoff performance anymore When your out flying for fun in the backcountry theres no reason to fly unless the conditions are just right and your 100% comfortable with what your doing. Weight is a huge enemy when flying at high density altitudes. My airplane weighs 535lbs empty and every lb I add cuts the rate of climb by 4 fpm. To put that into perspective 10 gallons of fuel is 240 fpm less climb rate.

Fish Lake is one that I have yet to visit that I have been wanting to get to. So my question for those of you that have frequented there, what is the best time of year to go (runway condition, mosquitoes, temps, etc.)?