I got my Private Pilot about a month ago and started my commercial training. I have a friend who is doing the same thing. We both want to make a career in Aviation. Doing what, we don't quiet know but just know that we want to fly.

Here is the situation. I'm training with Mesa Airline's pilot program at ASU. And it is great program they really train you to be an ATP pilot. The thing is that it's expensive like training is. I'm talking with my uncle and he is going to let us use his Piper Comanche to finish our training to CFI. If we did that, we ran some numbers and we would save around $10,000. Now the choice seems obvious I want to save money. Problem is I'll have to drop out of Mesa's program because they don't let you use your own plane, but I'll still take ground school from ASU. I'd have to find an instructor somewhere else.

So my question is, is this really going to hurt me by going on my own and finishing my training. Are employers going to look at my resume and ask why did you drop out of Mesa's program. Or be like oh he got smart and saved some cash.

Everyone's input would be appreciated.

I presume that the Mesa program is an FAR 141 program??? If so, is it self test, does it include multi engine training, and what are the total hours to complete the course?

Also, what is their average completion time for their students, historically? In other words, while the program takes XXX number of hours in terms of a perfect world, how many hours does the AVERAGE student actually usually complete it in?

Do you have access to a flight simulator? If not, all your instrument time will have to be in the airplane, burning $5 or $6 (or??) gas. Most 141 programs use simulators to reduce the costs to their students of the instrument training.

To complete Commercial certification under Part 61, the applicant must have completed at least 250 hours total flight time.

Under most Part 141 programs, a student can complete the commercial certification in 200 hours or less. In ours, a student can complete the commercial in as little as 170 hours, and most actually do so in less than 200 hours.

So, that guarantees at least 50 more hours of flight time to complete the Commercial if you "do it yourself", as opposed to a 141 program.

The multi engine training, which is pretty much mandatory for someone working in airline or corporate aviation, can be acquired separately, and perhaps even a little cheaper per hour, but don't forget that part of the training when you are doing the math.

I don't know about Mesa, but some college programs have access to more advanced training equipment as well, such as CRJ sims, etc. That sort of training can also be completed elsewhere, but....

My point is be sure to compare apples to apples if you are doing the math here. If you really compare one to the other fairly, there may not be that much difference, if any. In fact, in some cases, the 141 programs cost substantially less than a 61 program.

Finally, if you intend to work for the airlines, you need a college degree, regardless of where you did your flight training.

I believe that employers are going to look at where you completed your training, but it probably won't be a hire/don't hire kind of thing. There is no doubt that some of the bigger flight training programs in the country have good reputations, and employers are going to look at that.

So, in short, be sure you are making a fair comparison, and figure out what it's going to take to fill ALL the squares. Some of this the larger program can offer, whereas if you're doing it yourself, you'll have to go find those "add ons".

Finally, the flight instructor is HUGE in this kind of question. It can be hard to find a really good instructor, but if you know of one, and they'll stay with you through the course, great. Question is, what if they walk at mid stream? What if this happens three times? A larger flight training program SHOULD be able to fill in the "dissappearing" instructor with another fairly quickly, whereas if you're doing this on your own, this alone could be VERY frustrating.

Good luck.

MTV

You mention saving $10,000 by using your uncle's plane. That is a very generous guesture on his part, but I doubt if there will be that much saved.

Truthfully I can't operate my Cessna 182 as cheaply as I can rent one, the fuel and oil alone is now in the $75 per hour range. I estimate hangar, insurance and yearly upkept (owner assisted annual, etc) is about $100 per hour for 50 hours a year. If I add the intital cost of the plane and a reserve for engine overhaul, etc the actual cost to own it is well over $200 per flight hour.

I would hazard a guess that the cost is at least that much for your uncle.

I suggest the best course would be for you to supplement your training with your uncle's gift of the use of his plane; and continue with the ASU airline pilot program.

mtv wrote:I presume that the Mesa program is an FAR 141 program??? If so, is it self test, does it include multi engine training, and what are the total hours to complete the course?

Also, what is their average completion time for their students, historically? In other words, while the program takes XXX number of hours in terms of a perfect world, how many hours does the AVERAGE student actually usually complete it in?

Do you have access to a flight simulator?...

Yes it is a part 141 school and they have FTD and Simulator training and CRJ training too. You also get multi training. Being a self test school I don't really know what you mean? Here is a link of all the hours and requirements:

http://eastair.east.asu.edu/ECOPYASUEAST_EXCHANGE_08142008-110214.pdf

I don't really know the exact number that it takes people to complete the program but it list that it takes 46hr. for pvt. and for me it took 65hr. and from what I've heard that is about average. I would still get college degree no matter what I'll do.

Quail wrote:Truthfully I can't operate my Cessna 182 as cheaply as I can rent one, the fuel and oil alone is now in the $75 per hour range. I estimate hangar, insurance and yearly upkept (owner assisted annual, etc) is about $100 per hour for 50 hours a year. If I add the intital cost of the plane and a reserve for engine overhaul, etc the actual cost to own it is well over $200 per flight hour.

The big savings would be in getting all the training I would get in the Bonanza in my uncle's Comanche which costs about the same as that C182

I would stick with the program, I think it will serve you better in the long run.

Just a question, what does it cost for the complete program? Is the 10k savings like a ten percent savings? Is it really worth it? You might be saving pennies to lose dollars. My guess is that you will get the seat you want sooner if you finish the program, than if you go on your own.

hey trevdog, I'm on the ASU campus right now, and I'll be at Tempe town lake marina in the morning for the triathlon. Pm me if you're around.

Trevdog,

If you really want to be an airline guy, an ab-initio program like you're in is the way to go. That's only because it is probably the fastest way to get to the right seat at a commuter. If you're considering corporate aviation, being a slurry tanker pilot, bush pilot, or just about anything other than an airline pilot I'd suggest going it on your own. Just make sure you do your homework when shopping for an instructor. As MTV said, it is of "HUGE" importance.

Also, if the ASU program only offers you an interview at Mesa when it's all said and done, you might want to consider going elsewhere. From what I hear Mesa is on the brink of destruction (I know, what airline isn't?) and is now furloughing pilots. Despite Mesa's bad reputation, a few years ago it was a good place to go because of the lightning quick upgrade times. Now....??? I don't know if a program that places people at Sky West exists, but if there is, that's the most stable commuter of the bunch right now.

Good luck,

Matt

TrevDog,

Those costs don't look out of line. I'm surprised they're using an A-36 Bonanza for the complex, and much of the instrument, but that's good experience in any case. THey may be trying to keep the Bonanza busy, which is a problem if you only use it for the bare minimum commercial time.

It's interesting that they list 46 hours as minimum for the pvt. Actually, in a self tested 141 program, they should be able to do that in 35 hours, though our average here is 48, so pretty consistent with what they list.

I'd stick with that program, and supplement it with additional time building in your uncles' plane, as suggested.

MTV

Without knowing much else about you, thought I'd throw this out there anyway - have you thought about pursuing flying in the military? If your college has any ROTC programs you could do a preliminary screening with them to see if it's a road you want to go down - if ROTC isn't something you're interested in there are a variety of other avenues into the various services.

Given the current state of the economy and the likely grim forecast for commercial flying at all levels I can't see spending a dime to pursue a commercial career, not to mention that military flight school simply offers a different level of training. There are at least a few of us on the board representing the full spectrum of branches that can answer questions, feel free to pm me if you want the skinny on naval flight school.

The civilian route is certainly a viable one, but I hope you like ramen noodles and I'd have a backup job to roll to when the inevitable furlough kicks in.

Here is my take on this, having gone through a 4 year program and currently flying for one of the majors. The ONLY advantage to staying with Mesa's pilot factory is possibly getting hired there and a quick upgrade....which won't be so quick if you finish the program anytime in the near future. The only time you get quick upgrades is when either the majors are hiring (which they aren't) or when the company is growing quickly (which Mesa is not). Even then, know what you are getting yourself into. Mesa is NOT known for being a good place to work. While most regionals are bad, Mesa is at or near the bottom of the barrel. Remember, if the music stops, you better like the seat you are in because you may be there for a while. With no hiring going on right now, I would be willing to bet that there are a lot of guys in a seat that they really don't like being in. Morale of the story, beware of the lure of the quick upgrade and viewing the company as a "stepping stone".

As for what airlines want to see, don't buy into the BS that having a flight program on your resume is going carry any weight. A rating/license is a rating/license and they really don't care where you got it. What counts is the quality of your time, that you have been flying frequently (usually X number of hours in the last year), and that you meet the minimums. One of the best pieces of advice that I can give you is to get a degree or obtain skills in an area where you can make a living for when you get furloughed from you Xth airline.

As for using your uncle's aircraft, you may have to look at not only the possible savings (if any at all), but also the freedom of the aircraft being available. I know at my old school, the current rate is $106 an hour (info is about a year old) and for multi, $275 an hour (also old info, most likely more now). In the end, with a good instructor that matches you as well as your schedule, the end results are the same. One advantage that you may have with a program like Mesa's is if they will hire you to instruct after getting your CFI. But again, with hiring slowed down, those slots are going to be harder to come by as well, meaning you may have to hit the street looking for an instructor job anyway.

One last thing, please do yourself a favor and take the "shiney new jet, rose colored glasses" off and make sure you are fully aware of the reality of what you seek. Low pay, lots of hotels, on the road a lot, minimal days off. It's not that I'm trying to discourage you. It's just that I've seen lots of disgruntled new airline pilots about 6-8 months after being online after reality slapped them in the face. If you can get to a good company, it's an enjoyable way to make a living.

If you decided to go a route other than the airlines, then definitely rethink the 141 aspect. There are more important things to spend your money on, i.e. types of flying that is more specific to the type of flying you hope to get paid to do. In these arenas, specific experience is what gives you the edge.[/i]

TrevDog,

Don't know if an old dog recently retired from AA has meaningful thoughts to offer or not. But that never kept me from "talking" anyhow. Haha.

The airline career today and entry into it is so different from my experience, reaching back 40 years, that you should feel free to dismiss it. However I do have young aquaintences who have entered the industy within recent years. Let me say up front that the airline career of today, especially considering security/pay and benefits, is only a shadow of it's former self. You can expect to earn only about 60% of the traditional industry wages, even with the majors. If you spend much or most of your career with the regionals then your earnings will be about 30% of what was once the legacy airline norm. Security is non-existant. Airline careers now and for the anticipated future will be more like the traditional corporate pilot job. That is changing employers many times, moving up and moving backward with all the adjustment which that entails. FedEX and UPS, although freight airlines, most closely resemble traditional, airline career expections. With the possible exception of Southwest, the passenger carriers will remain deeply unstable, perhaps permantly.

My young friends who have entered the industy during the past few years have done it almost exclusively through the regionals. They will hire pilots with very little experience and the upgrade can be rapid....depending on the economy. Some of the guys have followed your path....such as Comair Academy and then gone right to work for Comair. Another friend graduated from a college program in Missiouri and went to work for Chautauqua as soon as he had 1,200 hours. He hit it just right and upgraded to captain within 2 years. When he became a captain he had less experience than my airline required for new hire copilots back in 1972.

The other guy started with Comair at the same time as did my friend at Chautaqua. At the time Comair was probably the best regional in the nation, with top pay. Everything went to hell at Comair and he is still a mid seniority copilot after 5 years. His contemporary at Chautauqa is in his third year as a captain. One never knows. By the way...changing the mandatory retirement age from 60 to 65 has resulted in a hiring/progression lull that will take a few years to digest. Keep that in mind as you make your career choice.

I cannot recommend the industry to youngsters anymore. Once it was consistantly within the top ten desirable careers in our nation. Hardly makes the top 100 any more.

However, if you have the passion then go for it. I would do it all over again despite the negatives. But then.... I am a hopelessly, romantic, aviator, never having wanted to do anything else. Flying auto parts in a DC-3 would leave me smiling if that is all that I could find to do.

Enough already. Bottom line....I'd stay at the Mesa school but keep my options open for future employment. Like someone said....the majors could care less where you gained your training.

The military. Well...the legacy airlines used to get the majority of their pilots from the military and we rejected most of the applicants, both military and civilian. However enlistment obligations for pilots currently runs about 10 years minimum. That makes a guy 32 or 33 upon completiong of enlistment and puts you way behind on the seniority list..... if your long term objective is civilian airline. Military careers are today competitive with an airline career. Excepting Army Warrent Officers....career military officer/pilots typically spend most of their careers behind a desk. That is not what most young aviatiors are longing for.


Good luck to you sir. May you find happiness in whatever direction your life takes you. Everything else is just icing on the cake.

Bob

z3skybolt wrote:
Good luck to you sir. May you find happiness in whatever direction your life takes you. Everything else is just icing on the cake.

Bob

Well there you have it! My airline pal Brad's son got turned down by the Mesa program (financial reasons) so he got a job pumping gas at a CHD FBO, took lessons, got ratings, instructed, got enough flying time and...got hired by...Mesa! And then America West. So there is more than one way to go. Enjoy the journey, Roger.

Bolt,

You are on point. Like you said, timing is everything. Unfortunately, there are so many variables and you really don't know what is going to happen. It is good for someone starting out to hear a realistic synopsis of the state of the industry.

Good post.

GSP

Just a comment on the military aspect....my son is currently enrolled at Embry-Riddle Prescott on an Air Force ROTC scholarship. These scholarships are not the easiest to get but are obtainable. His aspiration is to be an astronaut or test pilot. When he first got to college he had high hopes of getting selected for flying fighters, specifically the Raptor. Well, reality has set in and he has found out that lots of pilot slots are getting cut in the military as they move towrds UAV's. Competition is fierce for the fighter positions and now he is just hoping he can get any pilot slot. He told me this past summer he would love to fly C-130's!! I guess he relates it more to the flying he has been doing with me since his youth. He thinks of it as a big Super Cub. Guess he heard too many stories from me when he was younger about my flights on the mighty Herc when I was in AF Special Operations.
WW

I mentioned the military route because if it is a flying career - not just an airline career - one is after, the military option is hard to beat. My own career started with a random call to a Marine Officer Selection Office in my sophomore year of college. I was contemplating pursuing a career in aviation, was investigating options, and had heard rumor of an aviation contract with the Marines. Never in my wildest dreams did I think it would actually be an option, but things fell into place and that's the route I ended up going.

Programs that come to mind are Marine aviation, Naval aviation, Army aviation, the Air Force, and the Coast Guard. Amongst those there multiple routes to flight school - the service academies, ROTC, OCS, and the Army warrant O program. And within those services there is a broad spectrum of flying to be done - jets, props, helos, Ospreys, off boats, off long runways, off dusty LZs, etc. Unfortunately UAVs are now part of the mix too - all I can offer on that is worry about finishing flight school first and then deal with dodging UAVs.

To be certain, military aviation is about a lot more than just the flying, so obviously it isn't for everyone. Previous posters have painted a clear picture of the dire situation in commercial aviation though - as I said before, I can't see spending what it takes to enter that industry, especially if you have to take out loans to do so. Nobody joins the military to get rich, but you won't be living on ramen - MREs maybe, but not ramen.

And the 8-10 year commitment? Some may see it as putting you behind a curve to move onto something else, but you could also think of it as job security - that's 10 years of a steady paycheck and not worrying about the next inevitable furlough. A friend of mine just got hired by Cathay after 10 years/ 2000hrs of flying tactical jets. I would further disagree about spending MOST of your military career behind a desk. Like I said, military aviation is about a lot more than the flying, so you would inevitably end up doing something outside of a cockpit, but not most of your time. Typical career progression has you in a flying billet for 3 years or so and then taking a break for a year or so, but there is plenty of flight time available.

Hi,

I too live in Tempe, and about a year and a half ago was up against the same decision you are now. I hadn't started the mesa program but was looking into it and all of the other options around the valley. I have a very hard time believing that if you were doing the same math I was that the savings was just $10,000. When I figured it by not going through mesa I would save over $35,000 and have an extra 100 or so hours. Learning to fly in this area is amazing. If you are willing to do a little research you can find great deals, for example Arizona aviation on falcon has a old apache for $170 an hour, you can rent a brand new 172 G1000 for $130 an hour at Angel air (which happens to be where the top Mesa grads go to instruct). I'm not saying that moving around from school to school is easy, but as a part time student I have completed a lot of ratings and have done so for far less then my friends at Mesa.

Good luck,
Sara

WWhunter wrote: ...flying fighters, specifically the Raptor. Well, reality has set in and he has found out that lots of pilot slots are getting cut in the military as they move towrds UAV's. Competition is fierce for the fighter positions and now he is just hoping he can get any pilot slot....

i've thought and came really close to joining army rotc this semester but I just got that gut feeling that I shouldn't and didn't. and the army won't touch because of my glasses. plus look what i found today:

http://www.aviation.com/technology/081015-unmanned-aerial-combat.html

thanks for all the info everyone. I'm going to be going off on my own I have the will power to do it. We are still waiting to hear back from my uncles broker about the insurance rates for me. so we'll see what happens

Vick,
Maybe I stated things a little screwy but I think we are on the same page. I wholeheartedly agree...I have been around the military community the last 30 years, I was AF, my wife is still active duty Army (21+years enlisted) I have a daughter currently in Afganistan (she's army also-in 13 years enlisted)and now my son will be commisioned in a couple of years. The daughter was accepted in the Green to Gold (?) program and the going joke in the family is who will have to salute who first. So the military is not for everyone...it is definitely a different way of life.
My son has been approached by the Marine rep (Navy also I think)and was asked to transfer to their program and he did show an interest, as he just wants to fly. I told him whatever decision he makes is up to him and he knows I will support him whatever he decides to do. I think he feels the oppertunities are much less with the Marines than the AF.
By the way...Thanks for serving from a fellow vet.

Trevdog,
If you have glasses, I think the services accept some type of Lasic eye surgery if your eyes can be corrected to "X" vision. But, as I have replied to Vick, the military is not for everyone as it is a different lifestyle that some people can deal with and some can't. It has changed alot since I was enlisted though.
The decision you have made in using your uncles plane will have its ups and downs. I got tired of renting after about 4 hours flight time and purchased my first plane, a 150, because I got tired of scheduling problems. With your uncles plane all you will have to worry about is getting an instructor to work your schedule. The problem I had with that was the instructors would get airline jobs and then I'd have to find another and seemed to nearly start all over because they wanted to know waht the past instructor had taught me. So I ended up flying more hours than I felt I needed to.
Better give that uncle a big hug if he trusts you enough to let you train in his plane. JMO
Good luck with your carreer
WW

Trevdog, obviously you now need to build flight time. I am a bit concerned about using a Comanche for this as it is a relatively high maintenance aircraft and will burn a whole lot more fuel than your typical trainer. You'll find out just how "on board" your uncle is after the first maintenance event. You'll also want to work toward an instrument rating soon if not immediately. Is the Comanche equipped for this and can you find a good CFII who will work with you in that airplane? Sorry to play devil's advocate, but I'm selfish when it comes to my own nephews and my airplane (although I throw $$ at 'em!). Good luck, Roger.

Well, I've been lurking around this issue since it started and if I was in your shoes Trevdog, I would investigate flying in the corporate aviation world. Well, first off get as many hours and ratings you can and start bugging some of the many company's in the southwest (I think your located in a good spot for that). Try to get a job flying what ever you can and build time, experiance, and most importantly, relationships (well, business type relationships) with other pilots and flight department managers. If you make a good name for yourself, more than likely you'll have a great career in the aviation world. I would also be prepared to have crap jobs for a while till you build time and experiance. But I assume your young and don't have too much debt to worry about for a while.

I can give you 3 examples of friends or people I have known to make in the aviation world. (don't mean to ramble on here).

My friend Joe, started flying for AmeriFlight, then got a job with FedEx, flew a corporate jet for a business owner in Irvine for a year or two, and now flys for US Airways.

My friend John has always been in corporate aviation for most of his life and is very well respected in the industry. He's located out of the New York City area and has worked his way up to Captian on a Global Express for TAG Aviation. And I believe most of his job offerings have been from word of mouth and who you know.

And lastly, my friend Damon has a buddy (John) that flys for a NASCAR team and he made his way up by word of mouth too. I believe he started as a flight instructor at Statesville, NC and was offered a flying job for a driver.

Well, i'm sure you've heard many stories like this and don't mean to bore you and others. But good luck to you and keep us informed. Would be interesting to see where you end up in your career. And oh, if your uncle really doesn't mind you using his plane, I would go that route but help him with as much as you can with the maintinance and other costs.