Hello all,

I am new to the site. I am a 200 hour pilot (without a float endorsement yet) looking for a float plane to purchase. It's been my dream to fly floats and this spring I'm going to get my endorsement. I'm looking for a plane that can take me, the wife, and my 2 kids up - something with useful load capabilities of 800 lb plus. I've been wanting to spend <$80K canadian ($65K US). For the past 3 months, I've been online every night, looking and researching Stinson - 3's with 200 HP +. This seemed like the plane but have not been able to find something.

I have done extensive engine research and have crossed the Lyc. 0-435 off my list. I've been trying to also stay away from the Franklin 220 due to the parts issues.

I've recently come across a Maule M-4 with a very low time Franklin 220 in it. I have been reconsidering the 220 again. The useful load is 850 lbs so I'm interested in this. I currently fly a Maule M-7 in a flying club and am happy with it. The plane has damage history (I don't have the details yet) but it has been totally restored.

Can anyone comment on the performance of the M-4 on Floats? I've heard the Maule floatplanes are more expensive to insure - is this correct? Why? Safety issues?

This 220 is from the Poles (PZL ??) before they stopped making them and as I said, there is low hours on it - less than 200, so I've been thinking of taking a chance on it.

Any comments on this aircraft and the engine would be most appreciated. I would also appreciate any suggestions on what to look for when I am going over the airplane.

Thanks.

Im no expert on maules but nothing is more anoying than looking for a simple part you cant get. you might want to look at cessna 175s with a 0-360 conversion they have a good usefull load, good range and are more afordable than a 170B or 180. I know a guy who has one on floats and loves it, its not a taildragger but if you dont fly skis a trike is ok.

maulewaco wrote:I had a M-4-220C and wish I still had it. It also had one of the last PZl C1R -350 engines Factory new in 03. Where is the one you are looking at? Sounds like my old one. Vaughns has a nice M-4-220C for sale also in washington well worth the look. I would not let parts scare away a great airplane. Find parts for a Warner or Jacobs or a corn cob pick hair dill weed. It is not the end of the world yet! Just buy the dam thing and get some flying in before it is to late. Worry about anything else in never never land !

This one is in Quebec, Canada - I think it was a wreck at one point but appears to be fixed up.

Gill,

I've flown several models of Maule on floats, including a 210 Continental powered M-4 and a 220 Franklin powered one. The performance on floats is good, but the short wings do make for impressive sink rates, power off. Learn glassy water technique THOROUGHLY.

I wouldn't be afraid of either of those airplanes, but have someone take a VERY careful look at fabric, fuselage tubing, general condition, etc.

I have seen some very nice, newly rebuilt M-6 Maules sell for close to your price range, a few years ago, and you may luck into something like that again. The M-6, in my opinion, at least, is one of the best Maule seaplanes, if you can find one.

With one of the older Maules, I'd try to find one that's been recovered and repainted. The paint and fabric work wasn't the greatest on these airplanes, and they are after all, pretty old now.

The other question is what floats are on the one you're looking at? There are floats, and then there are floats. Some are a bit better than others. Again, I wouldn't be afraid of any of them, but which one might suggest pricing.

I don't think I'd worry too much about insurance with a Maule on floats. Now, when you go to wheels, worry a bit. I've discussed this with a broker, and he assured me that a Maule on floats would not suffer the increase in premium that the Maules have suffered on wheels. The bent airplanes have been mostly on wheels, not on floats, at least in the Maule world, apparently. On wheels, you'll pay a bit more than some other types, but....

I own a Cessna 170B, a pretty light one as these airplanes go. It's lighter than any 175 I ever met. My airplane, on PK B2300 floats, had a useful load of 750 pounds. I doubt you could find a 175 that's got a much better useful than that on floats.

MTV

mtv wrote:Gill,

I've flown several models of Maule on floats, including a 210 Continental powered M-4 and a 220 Franklin powered one. The performance on floats is good, but the short wings do make for impressive sink rates, power off. Learn glassy water technique THOROUGHLY.

I wouldn't be afraid of either of those airplanes, but have someone take a VERY careful look at fabric, fuselage tubing, general condition, etc.

I have seen some very nice, newly rebuilt M-6 Maules sell for close to your price range, a few years ago, and you may luck into something like that again. The M-6, in my opinion, at least, is one of the best Maule seaplanes, if you can find one.

With one of the older Maules, I'd try to find one that's been recovered and repainted. The paint and fabric work wasn't the greatest on these airplanes, and they are after all, pretty old now.

The other question is what floats are on the one you're looking at? There are floats, and then there are floats. Some are a bit better than others. Again, I wouldn't be afraid of any of them, but which one might suggest pricing.

I don't think I'd worry too much about insurance with a Maule on floats. Now, when you go to wheels, worry a bit. I've discussed this with a broker, and he assured me that a Maule on floats would not suffer the increase in premium that the Maules have suffered on wheels. The bent airplanes have been mostly on wheels, not on floats, at least in the Maule world, apparently. On wheels, you'll pay a bit more than some other types, but....

I own a Cessna 170B, a pretty light one as these airplanes go. It's lighter than any 175 I ever met. My airplane, on PK B2300 floats, had a useful load of 750 pounds. I doubt you could find a 175 that's got a much better useful than that on floats.

MTV

I appreciate your input. This one apparently had the frame sandblasted and painted 4 yrs ago with all new fabric and paint. Floats are 2440's I believe, tight.

I know of a Super Stinson on floats for sale in upper Alberta province. I'll check with the seller and see if it is still available. Probably satisfy your requirements including price...

once&futr_alaskaflyer wrote:I know of a Super Stinson on floats for sale in upper Alberta province. I'll check with the seller and see if it is still available. Probably satisfy your requirements including price...

Thanks! - That would be great - just PM me - I'm in Alberta regularly for business so I could easily get up north to look at it.

I'll wait to hear from you.

There is also a member of this site that has a Franklin 220HP Stinson for sale. Maybe he'll chime in. Definitley in your price range and it has floats.
Check Barnstormers I think it is posted on there.
WW

The EDO 2440 floats are built like most EDO floats: ie, they're built like tanks. THey are a little heavy. If they haven't had the longer rear struts installed, I'd look into that if you buy it. The floats perform well, but when they were first certified, the airplane sat at a VERY nose up attitude when on the water. This made glassy water stuff, in my opinion, a little more exciting than necessary. Someone got approval to change the rear struts, which raised the tail some, and made for a much better attitude on the water.

This airplane will perform well, and sounds like it could be a good plane for what you want to do. Again, get a smart mechanic to take a really good look at all aspects of the plane during a pre-buy. I'd have him do an annual inspection, so your "inspector" winds up putting his name in the logbooks, certifying the airplane is airworthy. I like that process, so that if something turns up a little later, and you can document that it was there when the pre-buy/annual was done.....you have a little leverage.

I doubt you'd be dissapointed with a Stinson, with the right motor. Big, roomy, nice handling airplanes. Considerably older than the Maules, though, so be careful during pre-buy.

MTV

I have a friend that has a Stinson with an 0-470 that performs real nice on floats or higher altitude strips on wheels.

WWhunter wrote:There is also a member of this site that has a Franklin 220HP Stinson for sale. Maybe he'll chime in. Definitley in your price range and it has floats.
Check Barnstormers I think it is posted on there.
WW

He sold it - I was about to travel to see him when I got the news.

I'd guess this is the M-4 you are talking about. I really like the M-4 but this has got to be the ugliest plain scheme I have ever seen.

No, no, no....not ugly, but rather "Distinctive"....

You won't see many people who'd be caught driving a car looks like that, but a lot of us seem to wind up with pretty wild paint schemes (me included, but I didn't have it painted) on our planes.

MTV

No dice on the one in Alberta, he sold it last month. A couple of 108-3 examples on Barnstormers already on floats...

Hi there I have the answer to all your problems with fabric and old tubing
http://www.supercub.org/photoclass/showproduct.php?product=1134

mtv wrote:No, no, no....not ugly, but rather "Distinctive"....

You won't see many people who'd be caught driving a car looks like that, but a lot of us seem to wind up with pretty wild paint schemes (me included, but I didn't have it painted) on our planes.

MTV

Is there anything on the M-4 I need to be concerned with (other than quicker power off sink rates)? What are things I should be looking for other than the usual stuff? (and the paint job)

thx.

Gear,

Basically, find a good mechanic in the area who really knows tube and fabric airplanes and how to inspect them. There's nothing exotic about Maules, they have a 4130 tube frame, and "metalized" wings. Take a good look at the tops of the wings for smoking rivets, and get those tightened up if any.

The point is, like many of our airplanes these days, these are getting to be old airplanes. Steel tube fuselages, if not cared for, or if abused, can corrode from the inside out. I'd also get in touch with whoever recovered the airplane, and see what their reputation is in this kind of work.

I'm not far south of you, by the way, in NW MN.

Take care,

MTV

Gear:

I don't know if you're wedded to floats, but you might seriously consider a Lake Amphibian.

A couple of years ago, I was looking for an aircraft for a similar mission, and--for the money--couldn't find much that had much useful load. I needed amphib capability (live in Suburban Chicago, fly to N. Wisconsin).

A Lake LA-4-180hp (1960's vintage) will go for under $60 K (sometimes well under). An LA-4-200hp Buccaneer like ours will set you back some more (maybe $80k), but it has an excellent useful load (>900 lb), decent speed and range, OK performance (not a Super Cub, but will get off the water OK), decent IFR platform, and superb flexibility. The back seat is tight, but it's a great plane for 2 people. (The bigger Renegade LA-250/270 turbo series is WAYYYY more expensive.)

There's a pretty active community of Lake owners; check out www.lakeflyers.com (I'm the webmaster, so I'm biased). There's also an excellent forum for club members with technical and operating info (membership info on the website.)

The biggest drawback is it's tough to dock a Lake (all flying boats sit low in the water and have stuff that sticks out to bump into a dock.)

Keep us posted.

Steve Whitney

PS -- If you choose a Lake, get specialized instruction; it handles differently than floats on the water. Not worse, just different. There is an outfit--Airsure--that runs a Lake-specific insurance program with authorized specialist instructors. There's a list of the on the website.

mtv wrote:Gear,

Basically, find a good mechanic in the area who really knows tube and fabric airplanes and how to inspect them. There's nothing exotic about Maules, they have a 4130 tube frame, and "metalized" wings. Take a good look at the tops of the wings for smoking rivets, and get those tightened up if any.

The point is, like many of our airplanes these days, these are getting to be old airplanes. Steel tube fuselages, if not cared for, or if abused, can corrode from the inside out. I'd also get in touch with whoever recovered the airplane, and see what their reputation is in this kind of work.

I'm not far south of you, by the way, in NW MN.

Take care,

MTV

Thx. MTV - appreciate the feedback - I'll do that. I did speak with the current AME of the aircraft and he said that when it was recovered, the frame was sandblasted and painted - so it sounds like someone looked at it.

ayeav8 wrote:Gear:

I don't know if you're wedded to floats, but you might seriously consider a Lake Amphibian.

A couple of years ago, I was looking for an aircraft for a similar mission, and--for the money--couldn't find much that had much useful load. I needed amphib capability (live in Suburban Chicago, fly to N. Wisconsin).

A Lake LA-4-180hp (1960's vintage) will go for under $60 K (sometimes well under). An LA-4-200hp Buccaneer like ours will set you back some more (maybe $80k), but it has an excellent useful load (>900 lb), decent speed and range, OK performance (not a Super Cub, but will get off the water OK), decent IFR platform, and superb flexibility. The back seat is tight, but it's a great plane for 2 people. (The bigger Renegade LA-250/270 turbo series is WAYYYY more expensive.)

There's a pretty active community of Lake owners; check out www.lakeflyers.com (I'm the webmaster, so I'm biased). There's also an excellent forum for club members with technical and operating info (membership info on the website.)

The biggest drawback is it's tough to dock a Lake (all flying boats sit low in the water and have stuff that sticks out to bump into a dock.)

Keep us posted.

Steve Whitney

PS -- If you choose a Lake, get specialized instruction; it handles differently than floats on the water. Not worse, just different. There is an outfit--Airsure--that runs a Lake-specific insurance program with authorized specialist instructors. There's a list of the on the website.

Hi Steve,

I actually looked at Lake's for a while - your right, their pretty well priced. My issue however was as you said - docking. There are not a lot of beaches where I plan on going.

Most of my flying will include pulling up to docks and shores / islands with some potential minor rock contact.

Thanks for the input.

garth