Thinking of filling a blank spot in my panel ('56 C172TD with O-300) with a fuel flow/totalizer. I have never used any of the aftermarket gauges. Any thoughts out there on brand, installation, etc...

Gump

GumpAir wrote:Thinking of filling a blank spot in my panel ('56 C172TD with O-300) with a fuel flow/totalizer...

I have an EI in a 182K. Second install I have done. Very useful for leaning (just set fuel flow to previously determined rate). Especially useful when I get out of my normal flight regime (typically >10K) down near sea level. I have it interfaced with the GPS so I get "fuel to waypoint" and "mpg" functions.
After several fillups, I have it calibrated within +-0.3%. Installation biggie is to mount the sensor so that the outflow port is higher than the inflow port.


Besides EI has a rebate now.

Gump,

I have an EI fuel flow computer in my personal airplane. I would never go there again. It has developed programming problems, and the company has been "less than helpful" in sorting those out. The programming procedures they provided in printed form, do not match the computer's responses. Frankly, the thing is about to be ripped out of the panel, and tossed.

I have installed the JP Instruments EDM 700 in several airplanes, and I highly recommend that unit. We had one fuel transducer fail after 400 hours, and they replaced it with an overnight new transducer, no charge. The EDM 700 gives you four probe EGT and CHT as well. JPI also makes a simple fuel flow computer, comparable in function and price to the EI unit, called, I believe the FS 450. I've used them, and their architecture and logic seems to be the same as the EDM.

I highly recommend the JPI units, both for reliability and for readability.

MTV

Hey Gump
I also have the JP Fuel flow in my '56 180 and am very happy with it. Very simple and amazingly accurate. Before, once my gauges got down to aroung 1/4 tank, from there on down I had no idea of how much fuel I had. Also have the egt/cht and really like that also. They always have an "Oshkosh Special" around that time of year. Basically if you buy the Egt/Cht, they give you the fuel flow.
Good luck Gary

Gump: I bought my 185 with a Shadin totalizer and I have had zero problems with it since July of '04. I have found it to be amazingly accurate and use and trust it for all my fuel information. As long as I either top off the tanks, or add a known quantity of fuel, I am confident that the Shadin is accurate within 1 gal.

When I top off my tanks, I program in 80 gals instead of the useable amount of 84 gals. This gives me a little fudge factor. I also use a Fuel Hawk graduated plastic tube as a double check when below half full tanks, but I find this method primative and not as accurate. Good luck, Ford

mtv wrote: It has developed programming problems, and the company has been "less than helpful" in sorting those out.

That's interesting, Mike. I have heard the complete opposite, that EI has great customer service, at least compared to JPI.

From everything I've heard, the JPI tends to be a better unit in a more compact package, but they've got some bad customer service, or at least one bad apple there who is making them appear bad. I've heard the opposite about EI, but maybe everyone has a different experience.

One neat thing about the fuel flow instruments is that (at least with the JPI) you can input your GPS serial data, and it will dynamically compute your range from the ground speed.

mtv wrote:...Frankly, the thing is about to be ripped out of the panel, and tossed...

Toss it my way, especially the sensor!

One thing that has always puzzled me in dealing with the Feds, and Big Brother in general, always claiming to be concerned for my safety, is why fuel totalizers haven't been made required equipment in all airplanes.

They certainly aren't shy about spending my money in telling me to do other safety related procedures or buying required equipment (like hiring an A&P to pull out my back seat), but it's perfectly legal for me to bounce around with 51 year old floats in the gas tank, guess fuel burn with my stopwatch, and hope extra climbs and leaning procedures didn't burn way more than my calculations.

Thanks for the info guys, that's exactly what I needed to start my research.

Gump

Gump, I have the JPI 450. I like it a lot. I would not own a plane with out one. After I bought mine I looked at the EI. The EI is STC to be the primary fuel indicator. The JPI is not. Regards...Rob

Jr.CubBuilder wrote:Maybe I'm just a technopohobe when it comes to my plane, but for all the money it costs to install one of those fuel flow meters I would rather put that money in the gas tank. I like my wrist watch just fine, a tank stabber is nice, and I always plan pessimistically for a crappy fuel burn so I'm pleasently suprised when it's less. I don't see any reason to trust an electronic meter any more than a float, or a tank stabber, or my calibrated eyeball. I think they are a waste of gas money.

True, but.....

I can fly all day long, and have thousands of hours of flying all day (and night) long using a watch, map and a wet compass. It's taken me all over the world flying that way. But now, with moving map GPS in the panel would I want to go back to that? Not this old fart. The safety and precision provided by the electronics is a quantum leap in my book. I still don't trust the boxes anymore than I trust an engine, and have stayed alive a long time by ALWAYS playing "what if" when I fly, but I also trust the boxes and engine to work like they're supposed to, and that's why I fly the hours I do.

Fuel flow is more of the same. I'm always within a gallon or so using a stopwatch and book fuel burn figures, but still, I want to know exactly what's going on. Things like your friend's fuel leak in spite of the electronics can and do happen, but in the Cessnas, get below 1/2 tank and the gauge becomes useless, and electronics or no electronics that's a "get ya" kinda deal. Also, in leaning an old 80 octane engine using 100LL gasoline, leaning by roughness or a single probe EGT just doesn't cut it. Save a couple of gallons by proper leaning each long flight, it won't take long to pay for a $700 fuel flow meter. Not to mention clean plugs and valve guides.

Gump

JrCubBuilder,

Both you and Gump make perfectly valid points, and frankly, your arguments don't necessarily diverge.

I'm with Gump, having operated airplanes for a living for a number of years--I've seen some really crappy fuel indicators, and fuel is something I've always promised myself I will never sweat, cause I'll never put myself in a situation where I have to.

But, here's the real value of the fuel flow computers: I don't use them just to tell me how much gas I have in the tanks. They are dumb devices, as you correctly point out. Garbage in--garbage out.

Scenario 1: Motoring along on a cross country flight, you note big ugly clouds up ahead. You need to get through a mountain pass. You'd like to arrive with 1 hour in the tanks, MINIMUM. You have plenty of fuel, but with a diversion, will you still arrive with 1 hour in the tanks? So, with the fuel computer, you can change power settings (this is MOST useful in a plane with CS prop) and re-lean and the computer will tell you instantly what the current fuel burn is, time to dry tanks, etc. So, change power settings again, and it will do so again. Compare this to your GPS ground speed and you have a tool to actually save fuel, and keep your reserves intact.

Scenario 2: You only fly around the patch on weekends. You go out this Saturday for a short flight, and go to a pancake breakfast and back. Sunday, you do 8 touch and goes at your home drome. Next weekend, you take a friend for a short sightseeing flight. and more touch and goes.

What was your total fuel burn? Pattern work has a completely different fuel burn than cruise, as does taxi, etc. And, are you REALLY keeping track of every minute?

Granted, you can be conservative, but there are going to be times when you wind up cutting it a little close. Ive been there, and I'm not going back.

The fuel computer simply helps to keep me honest with myself. Also, if something goes haywire, its' yet another diagnostic tool.

Further, the FS 450 and EI fuel instruments don't cost as much as you suggested, I don't think. The full out EDM 700 is up there, but it does a lot more than just fuel flow.

Zane: I've always dealt with a fellow at JPI named Ottis Cameron. He has always been very helpful, and followed up on every issue. Frankly, though, I've had VERY few problems with any of the four or five JPI guages I've used.

When i parked a 185 on a mountainside after a crankshaft failed, our airplane boss asked what specs I wanted in the replacement. My response was that I wanted a good GPS and another graphic engine monitor WITH fuel flow. The rest was details.

I'd stand by that today.

MTV

GumpAir wrote:Thinking of filling a blank spot in my panel ('56 C172TD with O-300) with a fuel flow/totalizer. I have never used any of the aftermarket gauges. Any thoughts out there on brand, installation, etc...

Gump

I wouldn't put anything in my plane made by JPI. Ever. Even if you gave me one free. An absolutely despicable company. When I owned my 182 I belonged to the Cessna Pilots Assoc. About 4-5 years ago JPI made a switch in the software that you use to download data from their engine monitors to a proprietary software. That in itself wasn't the issue. What was is that they came onto the CPA forums and basically told the people who wanted to remain with the current software that they were idiots and didn't know what was best for them. In about a four week period JPI literally wrote the book on how not to deal with anybody, customer or prospective customer. You had to see it to believe it. Hard to believe any company could be so idiotic. Their managements attitude towards you the customer is that you don't know you're ass from a hole in the ground and they'll gladly tell you that. In a public forum. And to top it off my local avionics shop, about the biggest in the experimental area, will tell you the same thing. They can't stand working with JPI either. They appear to have some good products but I'll never know for sure because they'll never see the inside of my plane.

GumpAir wrote:True, but.....



Fuel flow is more of the same. I'm always within a gallon or so using a stopwatch and book fuel burn figures, but still, I want to know exactly what's going on. Things like your friend's fuel leak in spite of the electronics can and do happen, but in the Cessnas, get below 1/2 tank and the gauge becomes useless, and electronics or no electronics that's a "get ya" kinda deal. Also, in leaning an old 80 octane engine using 100LL gasoline, leaning by roughness or a single probe EGT just doesn't cut it. Save a couple of gallons by proper leaning each long flight, it won't take long to pay for a $700 fuel flow meter. Not to mention clean plugs and valve guides.

Gump

Quick question on the fuel flows. I know you can add fuel to the gauge by a button press or two. But, can you remove fuel the same way? For example I tanker fuel back to my hangar and remove it and store it in a 100 gallon tank. I normally fly around with 40 gallons on board when I'm in the local area. So how easy is it to program the computer up or down?

Bonanza Man wrote:

GumpAir wrote:True, but.....



Fuel flow is more of the same. I'm always within a gallon or so using a stopwatch and book fuel burn figures, but still, I want to know exactly what's going on. Things like your friend's fuel leak in spite of the electronics can and do happen, but in the Cessnas, get below 1/2 tank and the gauge becomes useless, and electronics or no electronics that's a "get ya" kinda deal. Also, in leaning an old 80 octane engine using 100LL gasoline, leaning by roughness or a single probe EGT just doesn't cut it. Save a couple of gallons by proper leaning each long flight, it won't take long to pay for a $700 fuel flow meter. Not to mention clean plugs and valve guides.

Gump

Quick question on the fuel flows. I know you can add fuel to the gauge by a button press or two. But, can you remove fuel the same way? For example I tanker fuel back to my hangar and remove it and store it in a 100 gallon tank. I normally fly around with 40 gallons on board when I'm in the local area. So how easy is it to program the computer up or down?

JPI, Yes, easy. EI I don't know for sure but I'll wager yes. I have the JPI but if I was doing it again I'd go EI.
RB

I've got EI UGB16 graphic anlyzers in two airplanes... I do alot of cross country at night, single engine. About 5 years ago noticed an anomally on a trip (again at night) that caused me to do a compression check and subsequently find a broken ring I probably would have continued to fly with.... for a while anyway.

Also use the EI fuel totalizer.... I've got a Cardinal with world's worst gauges and a 4 hour max limit that I stretch to 3.5. On the other hand, a Bonanza with wing tanks and a 7 hours in fuel will bust a gut before you fly it dry (4 hours in ANY bird is enough for me)... thus a stop watch and some hand calcs are fine.

Bottom line; depends on what your doing with the bird. IFR or single engine at night, I like all the info I can get. On the otherhand, I can see the fuel vial's on the J-3 and I don't figure on flying her at night or in IFR --- at least, I'm not admitting it!

Dave C

daveinfl wrote:I've got EI UGB16 graphic anlyzers in two airplanes... I do alot of cross country at night, single engine. About 5 years ago noticed an anomally on a trip (again at night) that caused me to do a compression check and subsequently find a broken ring I probably would have continued to fly with.... for a while anyway.

Also use the EI fuel totalizer.... I've got a Cardinal with world's worst gauges and a 4 hour max limit that I stretch to 3.5. On the other hand, a Bonanza with wing tanks and a 7 hours in fuel will bust a gut before you fly it dry (4 hours in ANY bird is enough for me)... thus a stop watch and some hand calcs are fine.

Bottom line; depends on what your doing with the bird. IFR or single engine at night, I like all the info I can get. On the otherhand, I can see the fuel vial's on the J-3 and I don't figure on flying her at night or in IFR --- at least, I'm not admitting it!

Dave C

My main reason for getting one would be for leaning. I run LOP at all settings except takeoff. The factory fuel flow is a little suspect for accuracy. I have 5:15 plus VFR reserve at 75%, no way I need that much plus I'm almost always too high to get 75% so I'm usually in the 11-12 gph range for long distance cruise. Plus it's a gadget which is usually reason enough.

Jr.CubBuilder wrote: How do you lean with those anyway? That's a use for them I hadn't really pondered. Why would you prefer a fuel flow over a multipoint EGT?

That's where the fuel flow gauges really shine. Go to your POH and look up cruise and range performance charts. At each altitude the book will list %BHP for RPM and MP settings, and the associated fuel flow. For example, in the '56 Cessna 180 at 10,000 feet, 2450 RPM at 19 inches MP will give you %63 BHP at a fuel flow of 11.9 GPH.

In real life I use density altitude with the charts, and once at my cruise altitude just pull back mixture until the fuel flow matches the power setting I want. Dirt simple and right on the money. For the lean of peak guys, they can pull back even more and squeak out exactly the flow they want.

Like MTV's first scenario, knowing the exact fuel flow comes in handy with flights where you have to repeatedly reset power settings. Climb to get out of heavy winds, or divert up and down a few times and your fuel consumption is way off what you'd use for a simple cruise at one altitude. At that point, without fuel flow instrumentation, you're just guessing what you've burned. That's what makes me squirm when on a long flight when pushing into my usual hour reserve.

With fuel flow and totalizer it's a no-brainer. I know exactly how many gallons I've burned so far, and I know exactly what I have to work with to get to my next fuel stop. Without the instrumentation, I will always plan on the conservative side and stop for gas, which in most cases is a waste of my time and uses extra fuel to descend and climb back to cruise altitude.

Bottom line is, the more I know, the more efficiently I can fly, and spend less time and money on gas I don't have to, and more money and time on gas I want to.

Gump

BM,

Heck, you've told me I'm an idiot and don't know what's best for me a couple times on a public forum......

Oops--I'm not selling stuff.

That was a joke, by the way.... .

I have had only positive dealings with JPI, but dealing with customers is a world unto itself, and you can leave a lot of baggage around by not doing it well.

On the other hand, I've had EI tell me three times now that my unit should do this when I press these three buttons in this sequence. It doesn't. Their response: "Go to the airport, during working hours, start the engine, give us a call, and we'll troubleshoot it with you on the phone."

My boss kinda expects me to be in HIS airplanes or MY office during office hours, and what happens if I don't have a cell phone (I do, but.)?

While they are friendly on the phone, they have NOT been helpful, and this has been going on for a couple months now. It appears I'm going to have to take some time off from work to try to sort this out. And, it is something a mechanic can't do either--it is a software program.

Had one hiccup with the JPI's (several of which I operated). Called, was told a replacement transducer was being shipped--it was in AK the next day, with return package for the faulty one. Done.

That is customer service.
Your mileage may vary, however.
MTV

mtv wrote: It has developed programming problems, and the company has been "less than helpful" in sorting those out.

Whoa there! What possibly could have happened to have you left feeling like that, call me, we can sort anything 877-318-6060 ext 190.

1SeventyZ wrote:That's interesting, Mike. I have heard the complete opposite, that EI has great customer service.

Amen! That is truly what I aim for!

1SeventyZ wrote: One neat thing about the fuel flow instruments is that (at least with the JPI) you can input your GPS serial data, and it will dynamically compute your range from the ground speed.

The FS-450 is a nice gauge but it is not as cool as the FP-5L. Here is a literal product comparison http://www.buy-ei.com/EI%20FP-5L%20vs%20JPI%20FS-450.htm

Plus we have rebates currently as well!

Happy Hunting!

Jr.CubBuilder wrote:Your video isn't working.

http://www.buy-ei.com/FP-5_FP-5L_Videos.htm


Thanks for the heads up! I just tried it and it's still very Mr. Rogers but should work now.

The video is in Windows Medial Player so if you don't have that (or if it's a early version) you might have to visit http://www.update.microsoft.com

Good luck!

Matt