New here but have read this forum for years. Lots of good info. I know there is a few ag pilots on here that can help. I'm debating whether I should continue trying for ag pilot or get Part 135 mins and go to Alaska or wherever else. I prefer to fly ag because farming is my life but Alaska is enticing. Just don't have many contacts outside the local area here.

I have 322 TT 17 TW Limited Commercial SEL. Haven't gone to an ag pilot school because I know some operators prefer to train their pilots. Grew up farming. Two year degree in crop science. Three seasons as ground crew for a local ag pilot. Oregon commercial applicator license with insecticide/fungicide endorsements. Have also done six years as ground crew/maintenance on A-10 aircraft in Boise, ID.

I know not much experience but its a start. Without 1000 TT its tough. Any advice is appreciated. Thanks

Desertone wrote:New here but have read this forum for years. Lots of good info. I know there is a few ag pilots on here that can help. I'm debating whether I should continue trying for ag pilot or get Part 135 mins and go to Alaska or wherever else. I prefer to fly ag because farming is my life but Alaska is enticing. Just don't have many contacts outside the local area here.

I have 322 TT 17 TW Limited Commercial SEL. Haven't gone to an ag pilot school because I know some operators prefer to train their pilots. Grew up farming. Two year degree in crop science. Three seasons as ground crew for a local ag pilot. Oregon commercial applicator license with insecticide/fungicide endorsements. Have also done six years as ground crew/maintenance on A-10 aircraft in Boise, ID.

I know not much experience but its a start. Without 1000 TT its tough. Any advice is appreciated. Thanks

Find an operator who's looking for a pilot down the road, and sign on as a loader. It sounds like you've got some great experience to bring to the table, so the key is finding the right operator. Do some networking with sprayers.

I worked with a number of young pilots with less time and experience than you, and they're all spraying now. There are operators out there who'll use you but not help you move forward. If you're with one of those, politely move on. Look for an operator who's busy and may be thinking of adding a plane, or an operator who's close to retirement age and is thinking of scaling back his flying or selling out.

Lots of these guys will help with training. One huge operator who is always looking for pilots is Wilbur Ellis. They operate in the Midwest. Good outfit, but they move a lot during the season.

MTV

I have a close friend who is on this forum occasionally; CFII-MEI, SES, 750+ TW, 500 turbine and I think something close to 3000TT - most of which is Alaska/Mountain flying. He's also an A&P-I/A.

He's spent the better part of a year trying to find an AG position. Lots of unreturned phone calls, emails, job applications etc.

Ultimately, attending an Aerial Application convention and networking is how he landed his gig. If you know you want to fly Ag and given your farming/college experience, your best bet is probably to make friends with an operator and start off on the ground.

Sure, flying time helps, but not as much in that industry as one would think. Insurance companies want big $$ for a first year Ag pilot, regardless of TT.

That realm of the flying world seems to be 110% who you know and how willing they are to put up the insurance money.

Ask around your network of farming buddies, certainly someone you know knows an Ag outfit or two.

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Actually, I'd go knock on doors after some networking to find out possibilities.

Wilbur Ellis has a very structured heed training program.

Also, I think a lot of ag operators don't want to have to RE-Train someone. Many would prefer to train a pilot the way they want things done.

And again, plan to load to a season or three. Walking into a spraying job with no ag experience would be really tough.

MTV

Only advice would be not to wait too long. The more we age, the harder it is for an employer to take us seriously in a new career.

I started with my own Pawnee and no hull insurance; only drift liability. You have the state applicator license. The single pilot Ag Operating Certificate is a 15 minute flight to show the FAA man you can make back to back swaths and dump 50 gallons of water. Since he doesn't know anything about what is hanging off the aircraft and doesn't like the smell, he's not going to look very hard.

Don't spend a lot on the airplane. Without hull you don't want a lot invested. First crash is statistically the second season when you get comfortable.

I didn't get any offers until I started my own business. Then one of my competitors offered me a job in my plane or one of his.

If you get a chance to get to 2H2, I'll fly with you a day or two. Ask Tangogawd what he thinks. I'm easy (zero charge ) but good. Your farm background puts you ahead of 90 percent, in my book. Same with old operators. We actually know that an airplane is just another machine.

Keep the sticky side down.

Contact

Everything aside of your flight time looks AWESOME... having said that, if you're only at 322 hrs. and you're already wondering if you should start looking elsewhere, you simply wouldn't posses the conviction to make it in this industry... Our next pilot is one of our loaders. He's nipping at 1000 hrs, and doing it in company airplanes. he's networked, and amazingly dedicated.

Sorry if that sounds harsh... but if you really want it, your going to have to suck it up and prove it to some people. We have put to work some AMAZINGLY green folks, but they have continuously put themselves in our face, (without being obnoxious) and consequently 'were in the right place at the right time' and THAT is what it's going to take to and your first quality ag seat.

Take care, Rob

Rob has far more experience than me concerning quality, think money, Ag work. The most I ever paid for a spray plane was $12,500 and I never made what my tech son made first year out of the Army with a top secret clearance. My side of Ag is a lost art, but still quality. With less than 1% of us still farming, the customer generally owns considerable acreage and is looking for quantity as well as quality. To start your own business you need to know some farmers or find a remote area where the million dollar aircraft can't afford to go. As you are ground rigging now, I expect you already know this. No aircraft can get the quality kill you can get with your ground rig.They can just get over more acres faster.

Hang in there,

Contact

mtv wrote:Find an operator who's looking for a pilot down the road, and sign on as a loader. It sounds like you've got some great experience to bring to the table, so the key is finding the right operator. Do some networking with sprayers.

Lots of these guys will help with training. One huge operator who is always looking for pilots is Wilbur Ellis. They operate in the Midwest. Good outfit, but they move a lot during the season.

MTV

Well I did load for an operator for three seasons and the plan was for me to fly but due to the way things are with state ag deptarments and low acres sprayed last year from drought he can't afford to expand. I talked to him yesterday about things. Have plenty of water this year but the damage is done. I know almost all the operators here in the valley and have talked to them multiple times. Basically everything I had planned fell apart here.

Where can I find more info in Wilbur Ellis? I couldn't find anything aerial application on their website.

contactflying wrote:I started with my own Pawnee and no hull insurance; only drift liability. You have the state applicator license. The single pilot Ag Operating Certificate is a 15 minute flight to show the FAA man you can make back to back swaths and dump 50 gallons of water. Since he doesn't know anything about what is hanging off the aircraft and doesn't like the smell, he's not going to look very hard.

Don't spend a lot on the airplane. Without hull you don't want a lot invested. First crash is statistically the second season when you get comfortable.

I didn't get any offers until I started my own business. Then one of my competitors offered me a job in my plane or one of his.

If you get a chance to get to 2H2, I'll fly with you a day or two. Ask Tangogawd what he thinks. I'm easy (zero charge ) but good. Your farm background puts you ahead of 90 percent, in my book. Same with old operators. We actually know that an airplane is just another machine.

Keep the sticky side down.

Contact

I would love to own my own spray plane but the financing part is hard. Everybody wants 30% down. And those Pawnees and ag trucks are expensive for what you get. A lot of ag cats are cheaper but not sure why.

If I make it down that way I'll for sure look you up. I've read most of your book. Good stuff!

Rob wrote:Everything aside of your flight time looks AWESOME... having said that, if you're only at 322 hrs. and you're already wondering if you should start looking elsewhere, you simply wouldn't posses the conviction to make it in this industry... Our next pilot is one of our loaders. He's nipping at 1000 hrs, and doing it in company airplanes. he's networked, and amazingly dedicated.

Sorry if that sounds harsh... but if you really want it, your going to have to suck it up and prove it to some people. We have put to work some AMAZINGLY green folks, but they have continuously put themselves in our face, (without being obnoxious) and consequently 'were in the right place at the right time' and THAT is what it's going to take to and your first quality ag seat.

Take care, Rob

Oh its not harsh. Just saying it like it is and you're right. Everything I had going just fell apart. I'm pretty good friends with one of the operators here and I was going to fly for him but he's barely making it after last year. And Oregon and Idaho ag depts are hammering everyone trying to find violations out of nothing but thats a different subject.

I'm thinking my best bet is to go to the NAAA convention this year and make some connections out of this area. I tried calling a bunch of operators but nobody returns calls. The reason I was thinking of building hours to 135 VFR mins is to have a backup plan.

contactflying wrote:Rob has far more experience than me concerning quality, think money, Ag work. The most I ever paid for a spray plane was $12,500 and I never made what my tech son made first year out of the Army with a top secret clearance. My side of Ag is a lost art, but still quality. With less than 1% of us still farming, the customer generally owns considerable acreage and is looking for quantity as well as quality. To start your own business you need to know some farmers or find a remote area where the million dollar aircraft can't afford to go. As you are ground rigging now, I expect you already know this. No aircraft can get the quality kill you can get with your ground rig.They can just get over more acres faster.

Hang in there,

Contact

Wish spray planes still cost that. But the aircraft advantage comes when crops are too high or ground is too wet to spray.

My end goal is to someday fly SEATs on fires. I know there is more than one way to get there but flying ag is probably the best way. And means I get to stay in farming. I sold my small operation last year because wheat prices were so low it wasn't worth my time.

Everybody thank you for your input. Lots of good info.

Ag Cats are cheap because we have run out of cheap 1,000 hour round engines and parts.

What Rob said. If conditions there are bad, go where operators ARE working. NAAA may be a good place to find that out. Every state has different licensing policies, and unless I'm mistaken, the FAA now requires a recommendation from a licensed operator to certificate you.....no just walking in the door with a plane. Or, maybe that's a state policy?

I'll repeat what I've advised prospective Alaska air taxi pilots: Phone calls are fine, but if you want a job, show up on the operators door step, prepared to sell yourself.

A LOT of the sprayers in the Midwest move around a LOT, as in they go where the current campaign is. Most of these folks are operating fairly large equipment, and they have to move around to get the acreage to pay bills. If you're only interested in the local area where you are, good luck, especially considering the conditions you describe for that area.

Again, you've got some very good experience.....the key is to find the right operator. I doubt you'd like AK air taxi much....it's not a cake walk, and if you're just doing it for the hours......

Good luck.

MTV

mtv wrote:What Rob said. If conditions there are bad, go where operators ARE working. NAAA may be a good place to find that out. Every state has different licensing policies, and unless I'm mistaken, the FAA now requires a recommendation from a licensed operator to certificate you.....no just walking in the door with a plane. Or, maybe that's a state policy?

I'll repeat what I've advised prospective Alaska air taxi pilots: Phone calls are fine, but if you want a job, show up on the operators door step, prepared to sell yourself.

A LOT of the sprayers in the Midwest move around a LOT, as in they go where the current campaign is. Most of these folks are operating fairly large equipment, and they have to move around to get the acreage to pay bills. If you're only interested in the local area where you are, good luck, especially considering the conditions you describe for that area.

Again, you've got some very good experience.....the key is to find the right operator. I doubt you'd like AK air taxi much....it's not a cake walk, and if you're just doing it for the hours......

Good luck.

MTV

Conditions are terrible here for ag aviation. A few operators are on the verge of quitting.

Well I'm considering Alaska too because of the lifestyle. I am big into hunting and fishing and outdoors in general. I like the utility type flying. I have no desire to fly for the airlines. You can't beat flying in the mountains.

If you like hunting and fishing, commercial flying in AK may not be the best gig....hunting season is busy season.

MTV

Don't know much about Ag stuff but if u r outdoor type Alaska is your best bet.
Can't help but put my experience into this thread since it is an example of what can happen to some one willing to take a chance After getting out of Navy search and rescue in Viet Nam as aircrew decided hell I can do that up front. Went to Flight school in Santa Barbara on GI Bill. Got Commercial and Helicopter ratings. Bought a PU and camper with wife and 6 month old baby headed for Alaska. Arrived in Anchorage with $500 in my pocket. We both got jobs within a week and were building from there. Got flight instructor rating and started giving float ratings at Big Reds flying service on Lake Hood. He would never let me fly C185 or C206. But I was there Flying that C150 on floats day in and out....Got my big break when he told me to taxi the C185 to the other side of the lake for a 100hr I taxied around the lake waving at the other operators on the lake in the progress. Got a call next day from Lee's Air Service offered me a job flying C180 on floats during hunting season. Hank Rust from Rusts Flying say me flying Jacks aircraft and offered me a job following year. And the rest is history 25 years later retired and sold my AirTaxi on lake hood...Alaska Air Guides... 4 Beavers and 2 C206's. I am sure it can be done today if u have the ambition. Could I have done that in the lower 48 I doubt it

Not to mention, it's a pretty good time to be getting into flying up here. The Ravn conglomerate just upped their pay rates considerably. With a commercial and instrument rating, $205 a day to fly right seat 208, then on to the 207 after you hit 500 TT.

Seeing as the Corn wheat and soybean prices are going to be at a ten year low, and being in ag when corn was at its height, it's safe so say the owner operators are going to try and do all the flying they can themselves, and trim off the pilots they don't need. I saw that coming two years ago, and quickly got a SEAT fire job, glad I did.

It's all about timing, if I were you I'd go to Alaska in a heartbeat.

There is still opportunity here in AK. As said above, there's a need for little airplane pilots, and really a need for mechanics.

Read his first post: Restricted Commercial. I.e.: no Instrument rating. I.e.: a non starter for Part 135. In fact, a non starter for just about anything but Ag.

If you're even thinking about 135, get the instrument done ASAP.

MTV

Just a thought before you pick up stakes. The jets are going to go where the big work still exists or the bank will pick them up. Somebody has an old Pawnee or Ag Cat that still runs. I crashed my Pawnee third season and began leasing no hull insurance airplanes and didn't pay till end of season. Farmers trust farmers more than banks. Have you looked at leasing right there were many are leaving? Not all that land is going into CRP..

Thanks for the info everyone. Sounds like Alaska is the better of the two options. Like AKJurnee said about the corn and soybean prices being low. I'm not familiar with all the commodities but all of them that I know are way down. Thats why I quit growing winter wheat and sold everything. I had no loans and still couldn't make much money. I made more operating heavy equipment on wildfires for a month out of the summer.

I'm really considering just going to Alaska and finishing my instrument and multi up there and meet people in the process. Then I could decide for sure if I like flying in Alaska before I waste an operators time and money. Which flight schools should I talk to first? Or if there is an instructor that teaches in his own plane not associated with a flight school. I'm not concerned with room and board expenses. I can stay on JBER so I'd prefer something around Anchorage.

I don't mean to sound demanding or anything. I'm just straight to the point so I apologize if it comes out wrong. Appreciate the info. Its really helping me.