Split from "What bush plane kit to buy?" -Z
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I just finished reading the whole thread. While I can't help you choose which plane, I totally understand the desire to be your own repairman/mechanic and skip the insanely expensive costs associated with changing and modifying your certified plane. However, I'm surprised no one mentioned anything about buying one of the ready to fly SLSAs and converting it to an ELSA and taking the 16 hour repairman course. Sure it costs more to get into the plane, but you have it faster and can still do anything you want to it. Obviously if you want to build, then go for it, but I look at the SLSA to ELSA as the ultimate quick build kit if you are in the market for an LSA anyway.

I'm a long way away from owning my own plane, but I'm hoping to get into med school and a practice in a rather rural area. I would like to have a plane to fly myself out to other smaller towns as a way to cover more ground efficiently. A lot of these LSA ones would fit the bill nicely, but I still drool over the Carbon Cub and it's performance and useful load. But you can only get that useful load if you build it EAB (legally, anyway, right Tadpole! ).

Cooper - I think even if you could convert an SLSA to a ELSA, and you have a repairman certificate, I thought you had very limited ability to make modifications? Essentially it had to be built EXACTLY as specified by the Mfg?

I could be totally wrong on that, but thought this was the case.

The other issue would be cost. Buying a ready made plane can still be expensive - even SLSA's

Cooperd0g wrote:A lot of these LSA ones would fit the bill nicely, but I still drool over the Carbon Cub and it's performance and useful load. But you can only get that useful load if you build it EAB (legally, anyway, right Tadpole! ).

Right!

I'd say at least 90% of our S-LSA's that we produce end up E-LSA by the time the customer has them.

My research indicates that once it is ELSA, it is just like a regular experimental, but limited to LSA rules like gross weight and number of seats and such. Once you do the repairman certificate 16 hour class you can do your own annuals also.

Check out this FAQ from EAA:
http://www.sportpilot.org/questions/afm ... p?faqid=24

But it is more expensive that way because it is a super quick build since it comes ready to fly. Kitfox and Rans both have fly away SLSAs. And we know from Tadpole that it works at CubCrafters too. Some of the others mentioned in this thread might, but you can only do it if they have the SLSA ready to buy. A kit only company is a no go for this option unless they do it like Van's did for the RV-12. Since Van's certified their RV-12 as an SLSA, but only offer it as a kit you have to build it exactly like they say for it to be an ESLA. Once you get it signed off you can do whatever you want after that. I met a guy who has a flying RV-12 and keeps it at the hangar where I CFI.

Cooperd0g wrote:My research indicates that once it is ELSA, it is just like a regular experimental, but limited to LSA rules like gross weight and number of seats and such.

Correct!

Maybe I missed something but Jason are you saying that you can buy an ESA and then get a repairmans certificate for it? I thought you had to build the plane your self for it to be experimental or use it as a test bed for R&D.

Tyler wrote:Maybe I missed something but Jason are you saying that you can buy an ESA and then get a repairmans certificate for it? I thought you had to build the plane your self for it to be experimental or use it as a test bed for R&D.

I didn't say anything on the repairman's certificate.

You can make any plane an Experimental whether it's a S-LSA or a King Air, you don't need to build a plane to make it experimental. Alot of people buy S-LSAs and then get them converted to E-LSA so they can make any mods they want or so on. You could buy a brand new Cessna 206 and convert it to experimental to do what ever mods you want as well, though the FAA may give you more of a headache than it already is. In the LSA world it's pretty common. Having an E-LSA does not entitle the owner to maintain it unless properly rated though.

Think of it this way too....Joe builds an RV-6 and flies it for a few years. He decides to sell it, you buy it. It's still experimental but now you own and fly it, doesn't mean you had to be the builder to have it. Means you have to properly rated to maintain it.

Tadpole wrote:

Tyler wrote:Maybe I missed something but Jason are you saying that you can buy an ESA and then get a repairmans certificate for it? I thought you had to build the plane your self for it to be experimental or use it as a test bed for R&D.

I didn't say anything on the repairman's certificate.

You can make any plane an Experimental whether it's a S-LSA or a King Air, you don't need to build a plane to make it experimental. Alot of people buy S-LSAs and then get them converted to E-LSA so they can make any mods they want or so on. You could buy a brand new Cessna 206 and convert it to experimental to do what ever mods you want as well, though the FAA may give you more of a headache than it already is. In the LSA world it's pretty common. Having an E-LSA does not entitle the owner to maintain it unless properly rated though.

However there is a 16 hour repairman's course that allows you to sign off on your own annuals for a plane that was converted from SLSA to ELSA. The SLSA to ELSA conversion is much easier than certified to experimental. And another difference is the RV-6 you mentioned in your previous post can be modified by a new owner, but the new owner can never get the repairman certificate because that can only be held by the builder. Of course, and A&P can always do the condition inspection too. The 16 hour repairman course that lets you do your own annual is unique to ELSA that has been converted from an SLSA.

The LSA Repairman course allows you to work on any ELSA or SLSA. You can't convert a SLSA into an ELSA just like you can't put a 172 into experimental . Also you can't modify an ELSA with anything other than equipment approved by the factory. An example of this is the Vans RV12. To qualify for ELSA it has to have all of the same equipment including wiring harness, switches, radio, engine, prop, etc that Vans got it approved with. Any deviation and it is now experimental. Experimental = you can do anything you want to the airplane and the builder can get the repairman certificate for that airplane but any other owners will have to get an A&P to sign of the condition inspection. 40 hour phase 1 test period. ELSA = Has to be built to factory specs builder has to go to the repairman course to do any work on the airplane after it is built but anyone can go to the course and be able to work on it. 5 hour phase 1 test period.

That was pretty much my exact understanding of the rule Yak, but I see differing stories both hear and on other forums. As Vinnie Barbarino would say....

The regs are very confusing when it comes to light sport and experimental and of course don't make a lot of sense. A big misconception is putting a certified airplane in experimental category. The only way to do that is if you are testing for an STC on a new part or modification. While in the experimental category you have a defined test area usually no bigger than a 50nm radius of the home airport more likely 25 nm. Also you cannot carry any passengers. Don