This is split from this thread. It really got off on a tangent worthy of its own thread.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm kinda with Jason on this. One of the Glastars at my home field has a lotta glass on the panel, FADEC, dual electronic ignitions (along with the req'd 2 seperate electrical systems!), and a lotta other bells and whistles (literally!). The owner/builder is a retired airline guy, maybe he likes/is used to having all that stuff. But he's had a fair amount of teething problems with it all. Plus, I don't think he has too much planned in the way of back-country op's.
My philosophy is KISS : keep it simple, stupid! Also keep it light. If you don't have it , it can't weigh ya down or break ya down.
That Maule on Barnstormers sounds like a nice airplane, (apparently) a 3-year-old 230-hour high-performance airplane-- $130K doesn't seem too unreasonable. (but waaay out of my range!) But I wonder what the price'd be if the guy hadn't put in all the avionics he has listed? Those stacks aren't cheap. Esp those GNS 480's, which I understand are primarily an IFR box. A friend put one in his 180 but told me he didn't care for it, wished he'd gone for a 430 instead.
Eric
Glass Panel vs Classic Steam Gauges for Backcountry Use
Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:56 am
Cessna Skywagon -- accept no substitute!
Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:37 pm
So, what makes you think that glass panels are heavier than steam guages? Same goes for complexity.
Glass panels can really simplify things, although, as noted, if the builder chooses to install a lot of redundancy it can add up, but that goes for steam gauges as well, and they break down as well, by the way.
We compared the weights of the VM 1000 engine gauge package to the equivalent conventional gauges and the VM 1000 came out several pounds lighter. I still don't like the VM personally, but not because it's heavy.
MTV
Glass panels can really simplify things, although, as noted, if the builder chooses to install a lot of redundancy it can add up, but that goes for steam gauges as well, and they break down as well, by the way.
We compared the weights of the VM 1000 engine gauge package to the equivalent conventional gauges and the VM 1000 came out several pounds lighter. I still don't like the VM personally, but not because it's heavy.
MTV
Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:53 pm
to answer your question Mike-
My opinion on glass panels is specific to off airport flying, which I classify differently than back country or short field. If you are routinely landing somewhere that is not listed on a sectional such as gravel bars, primitive mountain strips, or the empty lot next to a gas station on some remote hwy, I would call that off airport flying. When operating off airport most of the time you are seat of the pants, feeling the plane, flying a non standard approach / departure and it's usually a one way strip. Simple aircraft with simple systems in my opinion reduce the pilot workload so you can concentrate on flying and keep your eyes outside to stay ahead of the plane instead of getting distracted while navigating through the system options of a complex glass panel.
Just my opinion, I like things simple.
Jason
N3673T
My opinion on glass panels is specific to off airport flying, which I classify differently than back country or short field. If you are routinely landing somewhere that is not listed on a sectional such as gravel bars, primitive mountain strips, or the empty lot next to a gas station on some remote hwy, I would call that off airport flying. When operating off airport most of the time you are seat of the pants, feeling the plane, flying a non standard approach / departure and it's usually a one way strip. Simple aircraft with simple systems in my opinion reduce the pilot workload so you can concentrate on flying and keep your eyes outside to stay ahead of the plane instead of getting distracted while navigating through the system options of a complex glass panel.
Just my opinion, I like things simple.
Jason
N3673T
Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:59 pm
Jason,
I just spent 30 years working airplanes for a living in the off airport environment in Alaska. I think I understand the environment you describe. That's pretty much what I did for a living for many years and upwards of 12,000 hours. Oh, but sorry, we didn't have many landing sites as nice as a road next to a gas station.....
So, once again, what would be wrong with a glass display in the off airport environment?
If you are actually operating off airport, into close tolerance landing sites, you certainly aren't staring at those steam gauges, so why do you think you'd be any more inclined to stare at or fiddle with a glass panel in that environment?
The glass panels simplify things, they don't complicate them, necessarily. You don't have to be any more of a wizard to understand a Dynon EFIS than you do to understand an airspeed indicator and a gyro horizon. The point is, if you are actually operating in the off airport environment, you really don't need either one of those, whether they be in electronic or mechanical form.
But getting to or from that off airport environment, one might find the more powerful instrumentation useful.
The point is, the small glass displays are simple, as you've suggested is desireable. Mechanical devices on the other hand, are more complex, and they weigh far more, by comparison. And, in my experience, they are more likely to break---in an off airport environment.
If I can take ten pounds off a real off airport airplane, that is a pretty good deal.
I'm not fiddling with gauges or even looking at them when I'm landing an airplane, whether off airport or on.
MTV
I just spent 30 years working airplanes for a living in the off airport environment in Alaska. I think I understand the environment you describe. That's pretty much what I did for a living for many years and upwards of 12,000 hours. Oh, but sorry, we didn't have many landing sites as nice as a road next to a gas station.....
So, once again, what would be wrong with a glass display in the off airport environment?
If you are actually operating off airport, into close tolerance landing sites, you certainly aren't staring at those steam gauges, so why do you think you'd be any more inclined to stare at or fiddle with a glass panel in that environment?
The glass panels simplify things, they don't complicate them, necessarily. You don't have to be any more of a wizard to understand a Dynon EFIS than you do to understand an airspeed indicator and a gyro horizon. The point is, if you are actually operating in the off airport environment, you really don't need either one of those, whether they be in electronic or mechanical form.
But getting to or from that off airport environment, one might find the more powerful instrumentation useful.
The point is, the small glass displays are simple, as you've suggested is desireable. Mechanical devices on the other hand, are more complex, and they weigh far more, by comparison. And, in my experience, they are more likely to break---in an off airport environment.
If I can take ten pounds off a real off airport airplane, that is a pretty good deal.
I'm not fiddling with gauges or even looking at them when I'm landing an airplane, whether off airport or on.
MTV
Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:04 pm
mtv wrote:So, what makes you think that glass panels are heavier than steam guages? Same goes for complexity.
Glass panels can really simplify things, although, as noted, if the builder chooses to install a lot of redundancy it can add up, but that goes for steam gauges as well, and they break down as well, by the way.
We compared the weights of the VM 1000 engine gauge package to the equivalent conventional gauges and the VM 1000 came out several pounds lighter. I still don't like the VM personally, but not because it's heavy.
MTV
As a avionics tech for many years. IMHO I would have to go with the KISS philosophy when equipping a plane for off airport operations. The less things to break the better.
So it were my Maule I would use steam gauges that last for decades. Infact the only things that go bad in a normal 6 pack is the ADI & Directional gyros. I would add to the requirements for IFR (FAR 91.205)...
-Garmin GNS-430 & nav indicator. The easiest IFR GPS to use.
-Another Nav/com KX-155 or Garmin SL-30 & nav indicator.
-Full Engine Monitor with fuel flow/totalizer (hooked up to the 430). It's comforting to know whats going on with the engine.
-Garmin 496. XM Weather, terrain avoidance, and battery powered backup GPS in one box!
That's it for now. Got to run...
Todd Giencke
Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:41 pm
Todd,
I'm just baffled by folks suggesting that steam gauges are simple. There is nothing simple about that collection of rotating, thrashing about, and thumping junk we call a "six pack". Not sure what you are referring to as an ADI. Is that a reference to an Attitude Gyro, aka Artificial Horizon? If so, you admit that these two gyro instruments, and oh by the way, the vacuum pump that drives them, most of the time, that is, is simpler than a collection of diodes encased in a flat panel? I would argue with that.
The AHRS that drives a PFD, assuming its a robust unit, is orders of magnitude more reliable than either that miserable vacuum pump OR the gyro instruments it spins.
Further, I've had at least a half dozen airspeed failures, generally related to frozen lines, and not that it happens often, I've had the big hand literally fall off an altimeter.
I've not used electronic displays much, frankly, though I've got a couple thousand hours with the VM 1000 engine monitoring system. That one panel tells you everything you could care to know about your engine, including fuel flow. As noted, the weight is lighter than the equivalent REQUIRED gauges. And it does more. Now that they've improved the display, it's a really nice package.
If I'm working an airplane in the off airport environment, I really don't need an airspeed indicator, an altimeter or a VSI.
So, my argument is that the glass displays, if chosen wisely, are lighter, and much simpler than the equivalent gauges that they replace. To me, in the off airport environment, lighter is better. I agree with you that simple is better as well.
We just disagree which is simpler: One or two boxes of electronics or twelve or thirteen cans of worms
.
MTV
I'm just baffled by folks suggesting that steam gauges are simple. There is nothing simple about that collection of rotating, thrashing about, and thumping junk we call a "six pack". Not sure what you are referring to as an ADI. Is that a reference to an Attitude Gyro, aka Artificial Horizon? If so, you admit that these two gyro instruments, and oh by the way, the vacuum pump that drives them, most of the time, that is, is simpler than a collection of diodes encased in a flat panel? I would argue with that.
The AHRS that drives a PFD, assuming its a robust unit, is orders of magnitude more reliable than either that miserable vacuum pump OR the gyro instruments it spins.
Further, I've had at least a half dozen airspeed failures, generally related to frozen lines, and not that it happens often, I've had the big hand literally fall off an altimeter.
I've not used electronic displays much, frankly, though I've got a couple thousand hours with the VM 1000 engine monitoring system. That one panel tells you everything you could care to know about your engine, including fuel flow. As noted, the weight is lighter than the equivalent REQUIRED gauges. And it does more. Now that they've improved the display, it's a really nice package.
If I'm working an airplane in the off airport environment, I really don't need an airspeed indicator, an altimeter or a VSI.
So, my argument is that the glass displays, if chosen wisely, are lighter, and much simpler than the equivalent gauges that they replace. To me, in the off airport environment, lighter is better. I agree with you that simple is better as well.
We just disagree which is simpler: One or two boxes of electronics or twelve or thirteen cans of worms
.
MTV
Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:25 pm
Ok MTV First off I don't want this to be flame "I know better" war.
You had it right ADI is Attitude Deviation Indicator.
But I have some experience with glass cockpits and AHRS (attitude heading reference system). The King EFIS (Electronic Flight Instrument System) using the longbow AHRS, and Chelton system in Pilatus PC-12. Meggit's Magic EFIS in Commander 690's. Garmin G1000 in C-182.
I can go into some of the problems with use & maintenance of these systems if you want to, But I'll just say that one major problem is you can't move when you are initializing them. IOW No floats. There are good AHRS units and bad AHRS units. Don't ask how much the good ones cost.
I'll whole heartily agree with you that the gyro's and vaccum pump have high failure rates.
But the rest of the 6-pack last for many years. In my 17 years as a avionics tech I have I changed <10 airspeed, <10 Altimeters (bad alt. encoders), <30 turn&bank, <10 VSI. This is taking care of an average of 20 very active aircraft at a time.
If the pitot line freezes it effects any system. This is a maintenance/pilot error issue.
One of my gripes with the glass cockpits is the size of the numbers in the airspeed & altimeters and the small VSI. These are hard to read in a small plane in moderate terbalance.
I find moving map GPS, terrain avoidance, XM weather to be better than just replacing what we already have.
As always this is just my opinion and every has one.
-Todd Giencke
You had it right ADI is Attitude Deviation Indicator.
But I have some experience with glass cockpits and AHRS (attitude heading reference system). The King EFIS (Electronic Flight Instrument System) using the longbow AHRS, and Chelton system in Pilatus PC-12. Meggit's Magic EFIS in Commander 690's. Garmin G1000 in C-182.
I can go into some of the problems with use & maintenance of these systems if you want to, But I'll just say that one major problem is you can't move when you are initializing them. IOW No floats. There are good AHRS units and bad AHRS units. Don't ask how much the good ones cost.
I'll whole heartily agree with you that the gyro's and vaccum pump have high failure rates.
But the rest of the 6-pack last for many years. In my 17 years as a avionics tech I have I changed <10 airspeed, <10 Altimeters (bad alt. encoders), <30 turn&bank, <10 VSI. This is taking care of an average of 20 very active aircraft at a time.
If the pitot line freezes it effects any system. This is a maintenance/pilot error issue.
One of my gripes with the glass cockpits is the size of the numbers in the airspeed & altimeters and the small VSI. These are hard to read in a small plane in moderate terbalance.
I find moving map GPS, terrain avoidance, XM weather to be better than just replacing what we already have.
As always this is just my opinion and every has one.
-Todd Giencke
Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:26 pm
Jr.CubBuilder wrote:Hmmmmmmmmmm
I'm guessing Zane would show up with something like a nice C185 sporting the glass panel from hell and an onboard espresso machine.
Ahhh money money money, the longer I own a plane the less of it I seem to have.
NOW we're talking!!!! an onboard espresso machine would be quite nice! I finally figured out how to make a decent cup of coffee on the B737. Steal 2 packs of the Starbucks coffee packs when the hotel maid isn't looking and then sweet talk the kind stewardess into brewing you a pot with them. Worked like a charm on my MCI-SAN leg the other day!
One of the advantages of an experimental is that I (in theory) COULD wire in an espresso machine! hahaha!
Arn
PS, is there such a thing as toooo much coffeeeee????
Just when I'm ready to pull the trigger on buying my own plane, life gets in the way. Well to hell with that!
Thu Jan 25, 2007 8:08 pm
12V Espresso maker, buddy.
This argument over steam vs glass...pffft. After you fly like this, everything else seems unnecessarily complex...
- Zzz offline
- Posts: 2854
- Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 11:09 pm
- Location: northern
- Aircraft: Swiveling desk chair
Half a century spent proving “it is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.”
Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:58 pm
I gotta know!
Zane,
What was that picture taken from??? It looks like an ultralight. Do tell! Man I haven't seen a view like that since I flew the mighty CH-46D in the Navy. Oh, the old days.
What was that picture taken from??? It looks like an ultralight. Do tell! Man I haven't seen a view like that since I flew the mighty CH-46D in the Navy. Oh, the old days.
Just when I'm ready to pull the trigger on buying my own plane, life gets in the way. Well to hell with that!
Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:45 am
The problem with an onboard espresso machine is that then you (or I should say I) would need an onboard biffy. My machine is a little cramped to install the espresso machine, let alone the outhouse.... 
I have a friend who has been flying one of the little Dynon EFIS units for several years now, and doing some really serious off airport work with that airplane. I also know of two of them that have been mounted in aircraft that have several hundred hours of nearly all off airport time. Those little machines seem to be holding up well. They offer a lot of information in one small package.
I agree that those things get a little busy in the display, but again, if I'm landing in a tight place or in the rocks, I'm not even looking once at that display.
Unfortunately, the Dynon's are tough to get approved, even if they're not installed as primary.
MTV
I have a friend who has been flying one of the little Dynon EFIS units for several years now, and doing some really serious off airport work with that airplane. I also know of two of them that have been mounted in aircraft that have several hundred hours of nearly all off airport time. Those little machines seem to be holding up well. They offer a lot of information in one small package.
I agree that those things get a little busy in the display, but again, if I'm landing in a tight place or in the rocks, I'm not even looking once at that display.
Unfortunately, the Dynon's are tough to get approved, even if they're not installed as primary.
MTV
Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:05 am
Not to get off the subject but I'm a relativly low time pilot but have been flying for years. I'd have lots more hours of flying time but with my wife in the Army for the last 20 years and being overseas most of that time it is hard to build time. I already own a 172 and a 7AC Champ with an 0-235, which is my "bush" plane. Anyways, since I had lots of time on my hands I have looked at most of the bush style planes and ended up building a Murphy Rebel. WHEN I get to the point of avionics I will be putting glass. This plane will be kept on my farm in the Minnesota boonies. I guess I agree with MV, I don't look at my intruments when flying around my farm and this type will save me weight.
By the way there are a few Rebels out there for sale. One on SPA has amphibs and the asking price is $90,000. Located in AZ. Just another option if you are interested.
Just saw that Mike posted about the Dinon...That is the exact unit I will be using unless something better comes out before the time I need it.
I believe Zane is flying a Powered Parachute. If I'm wrong he'll let you know.
By the way there are a few Rebels out there for sale. One on SPA has amphibs and the asking price is $90,000. Located in AZ. Just another option if you are interested.
Just saw that Mike posted about the Dinon...That is the exact unit I will be using unless something better comes out before the time I need it.
I believe Zane is flying a Powered Parachute. If I'm wrong he'll let you know.
Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:49 am
I guess I'm wrong (gasp!), and EFIS is probably the way to go...IF you are building an experimental and want IFR capabilities. Those Dynon's are what, a couple thou? Cheaper than vacuum system, DG & AH. Lighter too, I guess. I just have a jinx going on with electronic stuff, just this morning my month-old computer kinda crapped out, had to restart/reboot-- not what I want to have to do in the clouds!
But I'm an old-school and VFR kinda guy: airspeed,VSI, alt, ball, & compass is about all I want. Tach,oil temp/pres,amps on the engine side. Fuel gauges per FAR's. Maybe a T&B or turn coord if I get extravagant.
Avionics: panel-mount 760 VHF & intercom. Nav via handheld GPS. Txp with mode C if operating in & around an ATC environment (which I do).
KISS (yeah, I know what you were expecting to see here!
)
Eric
But I'm an old-school and VFR kinda guy: airspeed,VSI, alt, ball, & compass is about all I want. Tach,oil temp/pres,amps on the engine side. Fuel gauges per FAR's. Maybe a T&B or turn coord if I get extravagant.
Avionics: panel-mount 760 VHF & intercom. Nav via handheld GPS. Txp with mode C if operating in & around an ATC environment (which I do).
KISS (yeah, I know what you were expecting to see here!
)
Eric
Cessna Skywagon -- accept no substitute!
Fri Jan 26, 2007 5:10 pm
Just something to think about if you are planning to use the experimental EFIS displays IFR and or for weight savings.
Every certified EFIS system from the G1000 to the airliners has to have a backup attitude, airspeed, and altimeter (aka steam gauges). And the attitude indicator has to be powered by a separate power source from the EFIS. For small planes this means vaccum or battery back-up.
If I was in an experimental using a experimental EFIS I would want these back-ups before I got into serious IFR. And having these back-ups cancels alot of the weight savings.
And if you are putting the EFIS in your VFR plane. Why? You only need a airspeed & altimeter. And maybe a turn coordinator if you accidentally get into the clouds.
As always just my opinion.
-Todd Giencke
Every certified EFIS system from the G1000 to the airliners has to have a backup attitude, airspeed, and altimeter (aka steam gauges). And the attitude indicator has to be powered by a separate power source from the EFIS. For small planes this means vaccum or battery back-up.
If I was in an experimental using a experimental EFIS I would want these back-ups before I got into serious IFR. And having these back-ups cancels alot of the weight savings.
And if you are putting the EFIS in your VFR plane. Why? You only need a airspeed & altimeter. And maybe a turn coordinator if you accidentally get into the clouds.
As always just my opinion.
-Todd Giencke
Fri Jan 26, 2007 6:18 pm
Actually, airspeed, altimeter, engine instruments (several) , compass, and maybe a turn and bank.
My suggestion was not necessarily to operate in IMC with this stuff, but rather to use it as a simple (two small panels can do everything) instrumentation package that will weigh far less than the equivalent gauges, and will offer much more information. The Dynon has a really slick remote compass that works better than any of the ten pound remote compass systems I've used in Cubs.
Add a Garmin 3 or 496 to that, and you have a very capable and very simple, lightweight instrumentation package.
If something quits, who cares? Go home.
IFR?? Probably not this kid, without, as you say, lots of backups.
MTV
My suggestion was not necessarily to operate in IMC with this stuff, but rather to use it as a simple (two small panels can do everything) instrumentation package that will weigh far less than the equivalent gauges, and will offer much more information. The Dynon has a really slick remote compass that works better than any of the ten pound remote compass systems I've used in Cubs.
Add a Garmin 3 or 496 to that, and you have a very capable and very simple, lightweight instrumentation package.
If something quits, who cares? Go home.
IFR?? Probably not this kid, without, as you say, lots of backups.
MTV
Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:00 pm
WWhunter wrote:I believe Zane is flying a Powered Parachute. If I'm wrong he'll let you know.
Quicksilver MXLII, 3-axis ultralight. The view is just about as good as a PPC though.
- Zzz offline
- Posts: 2854
- Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 11:09 pm
- Location: northern
- Aircraft: Swiveling desk chair
Half a century spent proving “it is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.”
Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:04 pm
mtv wrote:The problem with an onboard espresso machine is that then you (or I should say I) would need an onboard biffy. My machine is a little cramped to install the espresso machine, let alone the outhouse....
Well, I can dream can't I? I love coffee but I don't go near the stuff if I'm flying that day. I call it the Over-Regulator.
- Zzz offline
- Posts: 2854
- Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 11:09 pm
- Location: northern
- Aircraft: Swiveling desk chair
Half a century spent proving “it is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.”
Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:04 am
Well Mike did it again....he said almost exactly what I was thinking as far as instruments. I have NO intention of flying IFR. If the weather isn't decent...I AM NOT FLYING. But I want just enough to keep me out of trouble ..JUST IN CASE. What Mike said about the weight and panel space used is what I had figured out also. Plus with the Dynon the cost is comparable to what I would spend with Vaccum gauges, with a good amount of weight saved.
Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:08 am
? about glass and dials
I have a question about glass vs dials. How well does the glass perform in extreme cold weather? I'm wondering if you are camping at -30 to -40, are you going to have a problem with the LCD freezing?
PS
If anyone knows of a CFI specifically for Maule's in the Anch. area iI would appreciate a name.
Thanks
Mike
PS
If anyone knows of a CFI specifically for Maule's in the Anch. area iI would appreciate a name.
Thanks
Mike
- akairborne offline
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:46 pm
- Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Mike Grunst
Learning to keep the rubber side down.
Learning to keep the rubber side down.
DISPLAY OPTIONS
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests
Latest Features
-
Live to Tell
A Minnesota pilot is surprised to learn that the sudden asymmetric drag of an out-of-rig ski can…Read More -
Creators
Working in some of the Yukon's most beautiful and remote environments, photographer Simon Blakesley captures aircraft in…Read More -
Aircraft Ownership and Maintenance
Upgrading to big tires can make a huge difference in backcountry performance, but with those gains come…Read More -
Tales from Yesteryear
In this tale from bush flying yesteryear, Don Cogger signs up to help Atlee Dodge Jr recovery…Read More
Latest Knowledge Base
-
Destinations
A regional guide with ideas for winter camping destinations in California, Nevada, New Mexico, and Arizona.Read More -
Aircraft
Finding an affordable aircraft that can handle the backcountry for $80K or less? A challenge for sure, but with the…Read More -
Aircraft
01.29.2018 - Zane - Updated tire diameter graphic to add 8.50x10 Guide to tires for use in the backcountry and off-airport landing…Read More -
Pilots
12.22.2013 - Initial article format Operating aircraft on skis and negotiating a snow-covered landscape is an entirely unique skillset and environment.…Read More
