Here's a scenario: A guy borrows a friend's plane. The engine won't start so he hand props it without anybody in the plane to hold the brakes/throttle. The plane isn't chocked or tied down. The engine starts, throttle is set too high. The un-piloted plane careens across the runway, hits a building.

Whose insurance pays?

Before or after you beat your friend to death!

That's commonly referred to as Natural Selection. The fact that we would even consider that a self-inflicted injury such as this goes to a claim is telling of our society as a whole. I have never felt compelled to demonstrate my stupidity by drawing attention to it.
Why would we hold someone else responsible for our own mistake?

It depends...if the pilot did not meet the Open Pilot Warranty requirements or was not a named pilot there would be no coverage for the loss under the owners insurance. As long as the pilot met the Open Pilot Warranty or was a named pilot on the owners aircraft policy it would pay for the damages.

In this event the pilot was obviously negligent in more ways than one. He set the throttle incorrectly and he did not chock the tires or ensure that it could not move once started.

Since the pilot was negligent the underwriting company for the owners policy could very well subrogate (file lawsuit to recover the loss paid) against the pilot. If the pilot does not have any non-owned coverage, he is on his own for the legal defense, court fees, and damages awarded by the court.

If he has a non-owned policy or a non owned endorsement on his own aircraft policy, he would be covered for his legal liability due to his negligence. This would cover all the legal fees, and court fees for his defense as well as any judgement (up to the limit of insurance purchased) that he is found liable for based on his negligence.

The non-owned policy, or the friends personal aircraft policy should cover the loss from the get-go since there is obvious liability due to his negligence. The trigger for a non-owned policy is "damages to which you are legally liable to pay due to your negligence". A simple engine failure due to crankshaft failure would not be covered under a non-owned policy as the pilot would not have been negligent.

Worse case scenario...the friend was not a named pilot and did not meet the Open Pilot Warranty so there is no coverage under the aircraft policy and the friend does own an aircraft or have have a non-owned policy. This would mean that there is no coverage whatsoever and the friendship may be ruined. In the event of a lawsuit from an outside individual who suffered damages from the aircraft both parties are on their own and both may be found negligent. The pilot for obvious reasons and the owner for negligent entrustment of the aircraft.

Know who you loan your aircraft to, make sure they meet your policy requirements, do not be afraid to ask to see a copy of their logbook for proof, and ask to see a copy of their insurance policy (either owned or non-owned). It is ultimately your investment on the line.

depends on if the friend was added to the owners policy, or if the friend used his own policy or renters insurance.

i contacted my insurance company about this, and the policy on my maule covers me in any other "similar" or "lesser" aircraft.
ie. i can borrow a friends cub, champ or skyhawk- but i can't jump into a bonanza, a seaplane, or a rotorcraft (even tho i have a ASES rating- my insurance policy does not include $eaplane$ )
clear as mud?

I'm kinda against the whole "borrowed airplane" deal because of this kind of issue. I've seen borrowed airplanes get totalled, and while I'm sure the "totaller" felt real bad-- evidently he didn't feel so bad that he felt he had to make it right. No insurance on either the airplane or the pilot in the two incidents I'm primarily thinking of. FWIW at least one of the pilots still flies borrowed airplanes-- evidently some people are slow learners.
I'm sure that everyone has the best intentions , but when push comes to shove ("oops, I wrecked your airplane") and it's time to dig out the checkbook and step up to the plate, it seems to be real easy to rationalize your way out of taking responsibility-- for some people anyway.
What about a case where it isn't so apparent whose at fault? Example: you tie the borrowed airplane down at another airport and it's dinged when you come out to leave? How about the engine failing and ya bend it getting it down? Both cases-- not (necessarily) your fault, but not the owner's fault either. Who pays?
Fortunately/unfortunately, I'm not the guy who everyone offers their airplane to, so this has never been an issue with me.

Eric

It's never even occurred to me that you could lend or borrow an airplane... I can't imagine being obtuse enough to lend one or presumptuous enough to try and borrow one. That's what rental planes are there for.

How about this one...you lend your plane to someone and they start showing off at low altitude, then crash into a house and kill someone. Think your insurance will cover your legal bills now?

If you are nieve enough to lend your plane out I guess you deserve the repercussions.

ravi wrote:It's never even occurred to me that you could lend or borrow an airplane... I can't imagine being obtuse enough to lend one or presumptuous enough to try and borrow one. That's what rental planes are there for.

How about this one...you lend your plane to someone and they start showing off at low altitude, then crash into a house and kill someone. Think your insurance will cover your legal bills now?

If you are nieve enough to lend your plane out I guess you deserve the repercussions.

Easy there turbo...I have been both obtuse and presumptuous according to your assessment. The key is to know who you are lending to or borrowing from and to have all your ducks in a row so that you are not nieve in what you are doing. If it were not for some good friends of mine being willing to share their tailwheels with me I would still be a lowly training wheel pilot. I can assure you that I treated their aircraft with as much or more respect than I did my own and I would not think twice about lending them my aircraft for any reason as I know they share the same respect for me. By the way, I was either a named insured on an owned policy with non-owned coverage or carried my own personal non-owned coverage in the event that I bent my buddies aircraft due to my negligence.

When it all boils down it is just an airplane, a machine, a material item. I can replace an airplane, but never a person and that is my only concern when letting anyone borrow any of my "things". Some people have to learn this lesson the hard way, but once it is learned they will look at "things" in a different way. My friendships are worth way more to me than "things" and I will not allow a friendship to be lost over "things". There are those who would not allow anyone to borrow their lawn mower or car let alone an airplane. There are also those of us who are willing to give the shirt off our backs to help a friend with our only hesitation being the safety of those involved. If that makes me obtuse or nieve then so be it. The feeling that I get from helping a friend is more than worth it.

Read my earlier post about insurance coverage...if insured properly there should be sufficient coverage to replace the entire aircraft in the event of a total loss as well as up to $1 Million for legal liability even in the case of your hot dog pilot buzzing the neighborhood. And yes, most insurance companies would pay for all the legal fees up until the policy limit is paid due to a settlement or court decision. Any legal fees after the a court decision or settlement exhausting the policy limit would be out of your pocket. Legal fees on most policies are independent of the limit.

Not to many years ago before the country was ruined by allowing society to succumb to the ways of the esquire. This question would have never been asked. I had a friend call me one morning about 18 years ago and say " You wont believe what happened I had to hand prop your plane because I left the master on, and it took off and hit a fuel tank" we remained good friends and insurance was never spoke of he promptly got his check book out.

Mr Scout, that's the way an honorable person handles things. Trouble is, not everybody turns out to be so honorable. We all have the best intentions, I'm sure, but you know what they say about the road to hell ...
Flybye, here's two scenario's to test your statement "I will not allow a friendship to be lost over things". One: your friend piles your airplane up but it turns out he isn't covered by insurance & has no money. You say "aw, that's OK", sell off the wreckage, and everything's fine and dandy. YOU didn't allow "things" to ruin the friendship. Or two: same situation, your friend gets a second mortgage on his house to pay for the required repairs to your airplane. This time, HE didn't allow "things" to ruin the friendship.
First scenario, friend is a dirtbag (& you're a pushover). Second scenario, friend is a stand-up guy, and worthy of friendship.
No offense with my examples, I'm not aiming at anyone here. (unless the shoe fits,that is..... )

Eric

ravi wrote:If you are nieve enough

lowflybye wrote:so that you are not nieve in what you are doing.

Bad spelling is contagious.

zero.one.victor wrote: First scenario, friend is a dirtbag (& you're a pushover). Second scenario, friend is a stand-up guy, and worthy of friendship.

Eric

Good point...it takes both parties to make a true friendship. I would not consider it a lost friendship if there was never really a friendship to begin with. Some people call themselves friends until there is nothing left for them to use you for. I would not expect my friend to take out a second on his house to fix my aircraft, but I would expect a true friend to be willing to do just such a thing in that event.

Again it comes back to knowing who you are lending to or borrowing from and having all your ducks in a row. I would not allow just anyone to borrow my aircraft, and I would definitely make sure the insurance is in place. Accidents happen no matter how good you are. I insisted on being added to my buddies policy and paid for the additional premium to do so before I ever even sat in his airplane. That was the least that I could do.

Added to policy and pay the added cost: also an honorable way to handle things. Some folks do not do that & set themselves up now for financial problems and injured friendships later. Like you said, accidents do happen.

Eric

If you are going to loan out your airplane, you'd best be prepared to:

1) Buy a new airplane, cause your buddy totalled yours. Insurance is grand. You still will have to pay sales tax on the "new" airplane, assuming you can find one.

2) Perhaps worse yet, your buddy flys really stupid, but not catastrophic. Look, folks, you can do more damage to an engine in a couple hours than you could believe. So, now YOU have an airplane with a sick engine, and you can't prove it was him, and insurance is moot. Duh.

3) Why screw up a friendship? Duh.

Sorry folks, I flew for an agency for years. We pretty much flew the same airplanes, but every once in a while someone needed to borrow one. Almost without fail, my airplane would come back after 20 hours with two bad cylinders or worse.

So, if that happens, who ya gonna call? Your buddy says "Hey, I noticed you had a couple lame cylinders when I flew it, you should fix those" You pay several thou to fix what he screwed up, and he'll never in the world believe he did anything. The hand prop scenario at least he can't deny it.

I had a guy borrow an F model 206. When he returned it, I filled it up with gas and it took 73.4 gallons. A total tankage capacity of 75 gallons. The airplane had Monarch tanks and was an F. He was used to flying a G with 88 gallons. Duh. If he'd stacked that airplane up cause of a ten minute delay, it wouldn't have been his fault, right/???

Finally, do you loan out your wife?? Doing that is unlikely to kill you.

Duh.

MTV

mtv wrote:Finally, do you loan out your wife??

If anyone answers yes to that they'd better be prepared to elaborate.

I might be persuaded to loan, er, I mean rent out my wife but never my airplane!

Mr. Scout, was that an icident at Columbia Cal. Heard about that last summer at a fly in camping trip there. The marks are still on the fuel Tank...

Thanks for the responses. So is the FAA or NTSB supposed to be notified of a hand prop accident? Seems like somebody ought to investigate because of the extreme potential for loss of life or serious injury when somebody screws up this badly.

zane wrote:

mtv wrote:Finally, do you loan out your wife??

If anyone answers yes to that they'd better be prepared to elaborate.

I gotta couple of ex's I'll give ya for free. Hell, I'll pay you to take 'em.

Airplane... No one messes with but me and Hoser the dog.

Gump

I think the FAR's call out what has to be reported as an accident. Major damage to aircraft and/or injury or death to human beans required to be an "accident" as I recall.
Just checked the FAR/AIM book. Pertinent sections are FAR Part 830, and AIM chapter 7 section 6. As near as I can figure without consulting my attorney , a hand-propping gone wrong does not have to be reported, provided that damage to property (other than the aircraft) is estimated to be less than $25K. Don't see any requirement to report death or dismemberment unless certain other aircraft-related qualifications of accident are met.
Not quite as I recalled it. Maybe somebody else will give it a read and give us their take on it.

Eric