gb,

Thanks, the Peltor helmet is the one that I was trying to think of. I have no experience with them at all, but the price is a lot cheaper.

Could you tell us more about the helmet, and your experiences with it?

Thanks,

MTV

So now on to the ethical dilemma:

How does it look when you saddle up in your Nomex long johns, gloves and balaclava, helmet, leather footwear, and survival vest with PLB, and then toss your passenger a beater pair of David Clarks for the flight?

Seriously. I only have about half of that stuff, but I still feel sheepish when I'm wearing it, and I don't have a complete set of the same to offer my passenger. And I wonder what it does for their relaxation and enjoyment of the flight.

The agencies have entire storerooms full of loaner gear in all sizes, but it's not like we're all going to stock that much stuff.

So what do you do for passengers, and how do you finesse it if the disparity is huge?

(On the other hand, I intend to return home to my kids at the end of the day, and that IS the bottom line.)

denalipilot wrote:So now on to the ethical dilemma:

How does it look when you saddle up in your Nomex long johns, gloves and balaclava, helmet, leather footwear, and survival vest with PLB, and then toss your passenger a beater pair of David Clarks for the flight?

Seriously. I only have about half of that stuff, but I still feel sheepish when I'm wearing it, and I don't have a complete set of the same to offer my passenger. And I wonder what it does for their relaxation and enjoyment of the flight.

The agencies have entire storerooms full of loaner gear in all sizes, but it's not like we're all going to stock that much stuff.

So what do you do for passengers, and how do you finesse it if the disparity is huge?

(On the other hand, I intend to return home to my kids at the end of the day, and that IS the bottom line.)

Well, you can start by only taking what the mission dictates. If you're just doing a little local flying near the airport in the summertime, you hardly need to gear up like you're going to be crossing the Rockies in the wintertime. If you feel you need to carry your survival vest, you can tell your pax that you are wearing the survival gear in case you have to land away from the airport and it's for their safety and you have enough equipment for all of them (e.g., "No, you don't get your own vest".)

You can tell them the helmet has your communications equipment in it. They don't want to wear a stinky, ill-fitting loaner helmet anyway. Really.

I personally hate Nomex more than the IRS. Maybe if we had fewer 100 degree days around here, but I don't wear that crap unless I'm messing around with warbirds, but that's only because even the clean ones are generally filthy beasts (and that's why we love them.) I do, however wear all cotton or wool clothing, and while I don't check their underwear, I do ask my passengers to do the same. It boggles my mind that even today I can get on an airliner and the geriatric flight attendants are still wearing nylons and polyester from head to toe. Even in my day job I spend the extra money for wool uniform pants and 100% cotton pilot shirts. I spend a little extra time in the hotel ironing, but that beats having your skin shaved off because there's melted plastic in it.

If my flying was that death defying that there is much of a chance I would need to wear a helmet and nomex to survive a possible bad outcome then I don't think it would really be responsible of me to go in the first place. I intend to return to my kids as much as the next guy, I also take the chance and bring the kids along too. You can't remove all risk and precaution is a personal call by the individual but really safety can go overboard I think. "Hey kids lets go flying, dad is now going to put on his burn suit but you little guys will be just fine!" I have a theory that kids on bicycles and skateboards feel suddenly bullet proof wearing helmets and do stupid things with them on. I would think that is not the case with pilots. I guess evaluate the risk and do what you will but I would think it would help to be consistent across the board. Good shoulder restraints, no question.

jprax wrote:If my flying was that death defying that there is much of a chance I would need to wear a helmet and nomex to survive a possible bad outcome then I don't think it would really be responsible of me to go in the first place.

It actually takes very little force in just the right spot on the human head to kill a person. I suspect a simple groundloop would kill you if it all happened just right. People die by slipping in the bathtub, certainly not a death-defying activity. Natasha Richardson fell backwards on a beginner ski slope and struck the back of her head, causing some sort of internal hematoma that killed her a short time later.

As for helmets making people braver...maybe. All I know is that during my moto years I never rode without one and it was like an extension of my body; I forgot I had it on and it played no factor in the chances I took. There's no amount of body armor available that would increase my bravado in an airplane, because it really doesn't take much of an impact to be unsurvivable even with head protection. There are no airbags in planes, the forces are far greater than driving a car, and your last successful flight has nothing to do with your odds of striking your head in an accident on your next flight.

That helmet though could get you home to see the kids again. The Berk accident in Idaho '07 for instance: There was no fire, impact was reportedly not enough to inflict the kind of damage you have no chance of surviving (detached aorta, major artery compromise) but Berk died because he hit his head. He even had shoulder harnesses, but I suspect he suffered a side impact to the cranium when he hit the door frame. I don't know for sure, that is my uninformed speculation. His wife broke her neck and survived.

Then there was that fellow who was killed recently during a fast taxi test of his RV. Flipped it over on its back and there was nothing between his head and the concrete except canopy. I have read stories of some guy putting his plane down in a farmer's tilled-up field and drying because the aircraft flipped and he took one on the melon.

If the difference between dying and walking away from that is a helmet, I am all for it. It's one of those things on my list that I mean to get, but never get around to...not good. Accidents are just that...something that happens despite your best efforts. I wear them whenever I fly our ultralights, mainly because they're part of the integrated headset/intercom system, but I like them.

Not preaching, just my take on it.

There is no way I would ever wear a helmet on a regular basis just flying from paved airport to paved airport. Flying the back country in my underpowered plane, however, makes me think I should get one. I think a $25 bicycle helmet would be perfect - light, cheap, comfortable, and well vented so it isn't too hot. Well, perfect until gasoline dribbles on it in the crash, it ignites, and melted, burning styrofoam runs down my face.

There has to be a similar cheap, lightweight helmet out there that is fireproof. I'm not going to pay $1000 for a brain-bucket when I could make my own out of fiberglass with a leather suspension system for at least $900 less than that! Does anyone have any ideas for a cheap helmet from some other sport or discipline that could work here?

If I was going to wear one I guess I wouldn't make it myself but that may just be me.
Of course they may make a difference but at what point? If we are looking for absolute safety then sell the plane and take up knitting. Yes there are freak accidents, people do slip in the bath tube but thankfully we still take a shower, babies continually climb into paint buckets etc... I'm comfortable not using one. Yes my mechanic told me on the numerous recoveries he has been on where there were fatalities it was from hitting your head on something. I put in shoulder belts and am looking at reducing the things to hit. I'm not wildly risky, on the highway wear a seat belt. Two blocks to the post office, live dangerously. I would think if someone thinks a helmet and nomex are needed for safety they should have it for all aboard and good for them, but why for one and not for all? I don't doubt that it could prevent some deaths and heaven forbid I'm the second but I think there may be more risks out there to manage.
There isn't an answer, it is all opinion and makes the internet a busier place.

nealkas wrote:I'd rather have folks see my helmet on the ramp and think me silly than have folks looking at my box and know I'm dead.

Exactly.

There's alot of talk on here about survival vests, what kind, what to carry in it, different types of locators, ect... All great info, but when you bring up a helmet it insults some peoples manhood I guess? All that stuff won't help if you don't survive the ACCIDENT. Obviously if we doubted our capabilities or the aircraft, you'd be a fool to leave the ground. But ACCIDENTS do happen, the NTSB site is full of them, quite a few I would guess might have benefited from a lid. To say you would never wear one because you don't see a risk flying from pavement... consider increasing your useful load by removing your seat belts & ELT, myself I'll keep them just incase.

Sure it looks different climbing out of a 172, than a guy in nomex & a helmet in a warbird. But I don't think I would use the word 'silly'. As for what pax think, if you can keep conscious & get them out before the fire, all the better for them. Not to mention your the one putting in hour after hour in the plane in a high noise environment, better for your hearing in the long run. It's not ideal or necessary for everyone, but it is without a doubt safer & isn't that what we all strive for? I know I want to go home at the end of the day & wouldn't take a risk in an expensive aircraft simply because I had a fancy hat on.

And before you try to build your own fiberglass & leather contraption, check out eBay, there's usually a few used or surplus helmets on there that are less expensive. You may have to replace the plugs & mic, civilian radios have a different impedance than military.

Just my thoughts. Feel free to disregard them at will

Your torso arms and legs can take a lot of abuse but not your head. I never ride my motorcycles without one. My friends sister worked in the emergency room and she had story after story of people dying from minor accidents where they just hit their head.

When I was trying to get the 175 legal I bought an ultralight helmet. Mostly so I could use my handheld radio with the helmet. I carry it on the back seat of my plane. All I have to do is reach around and there it is. If I ever declare an emergency that helmet is going on immediately!

I bought mine used and I don't think it cost over $200. Nice to know it's there even if I don't wear it.

mtv wrote:gb,

Thanks, the Peltor helmet is the one that I was trying to think of. I have no experience with them at all, but the price is a lot cheaper.

Could you tell us more about the helmet, and your experiences with it?

Thanks,

MTV

The fellow that peddles them does some acro instruction. It was my understanding that the helmet is actually one made for a race car, he gets them in and puts aircraft impedance comms in them.

The headphones are passive but quite clear sounding, and I find the helmet to be somewhat more quiet than the standard passive David Clark headsets. The padding inside is fairly form fitting, given it's not a custom fit. He makes it optional to fit a visor to it, which I got and was glad I did. It's a military style visor made out of plastic, scratches easily.

If I were to pick on any one part, it might be the boom mic. While the mic itself seems fine, the boom is made out of wire, and seems a little cheap. Might be a weight savings measure...I'm not sure.

I used it in my -11, I never liked the idea of having a V permanently embedded in my forehead. Longest I ever had it on was a 3.5 hour ride to Ketchikan. It was starting to get a little irritating. For most of the stuff I did...hour flights and such, it was fine.

I think a helmet is a good idea if you are operating off airport. Do it long enough, and you'll bend something...guaranteed.

Paul Claus is about as cool a bush pilot as you will ever meet, and he wears a helmet, even in his Otter.

gb

PilotMikeTx wrote:

denalipilot wrote:So now on to the ethical dilemma:

How does it look when you saddle up in your Nomex long johns, gloves and balaclava, helmet, leather footwear, and survival vest with PLB, and then toss your passenger a beater pair of David Clarks for the flight?

Seriously. I only have about half of that stuff, but I still feel sheepish when I'm wearing it, and I don't have a complete set of the same to offer my passenger. And I wonder what it does for their relaxation and enjoyment of the flight.

The agencies have entire storerooms full of loaner gear in all sizes, but it's not like we're all going to stock that much stuff.

So what do you do for passengers, and how do you finesse it if the disparity is huge?

(On the other hand, I intend to return home to my kids at the end of the day, and that IS the bottom line.)

Well, you can start by only taking what the mission dictates. If you're just doing a little local flying near the airport in the summertime, you hardly need to gear up like you're going to be crossing the Rockies in the wintertime. If you feel you need to carry your survival vest, you can tell your pax that you are wearing the survival gear in case you have to land away from the airport and it's for their safety and you have enough equipment for all of them (e.g., "No, you don't get your own vest".)

Where Denalipilot and I fly there is no difference between "a little local flying" and crossing mountains. We live in the Alaska Range and with two broken legs you will be fighting for survival in the wilderness even a few hundred yards from the runway if no one saw you go down.

When you look around and contemplate choosing between boreal forest, moving water, or 40 degree talus slopes for an emergency landing spot you realize that discussions like these transcend simple idle hangar talk.

That being said your thoughts on a discussion are good ones.

BTW I hate Gentex though I wear it regularly.

Wow, not often do I ask a question on a forum I am new to and get so many great responses. I am getting a helmet, I generally wear flame resistant clothing anyways. Stuff like Riggs ranger pants, or Arbor Wear. I know it is not Nomex, but I have crashed my supermoto bike while screwing around on errands, and it did not rip or burn through. I also have welded in both my Riggs, and Arbor Wear a lot, and they hold up to that well.
I like the vest idea, and I have duplicates and even triplicates of a lot of the gear that should be carried in one for woods riding and back country skiing, and my extended 4x4 trips. I spent a night out in the woods in a early snowstorm recently, I was very glad I was prepared. SAR couldn't even look for me until about 10AM the next morning. By then I had hiked out to a road and found them in the lot I parked my truck in. I learned a bit that day about the chain of events that lead to a situation like I was in. I could have prevented the entire thing had I not made one or two bad choices early in the day. I have been almost paranoid about having the right stuff with me to survive since high school when I thought I could snowboard on the backside of Mt Alyeska. I spent a very very long Alaska winter night breaking through the crust into 4 feet of snow with a burned out head lamp, no snow shoes, no water, no food, no fire starting stuff, and no clue. I made it a point to never come that close to dying in the woods again.

On another note, I just bought 1/3 of a 1946 Champ. It is a project, but the IA that went in on it with me believes we should have it flying, and looking good while doing it by march at the latest. He had a good track record with making old planes fly again, so I believe him. I will be able to get some good inexpensive tail wheel experience, and since I am out of S10, I have nice farm fields and long straight dirt roads to the east, and big scary mountains and canyons to the west. I know, baby steps.

GB,

Thanks for the feedback. Good stuff, and a promising lower cost helmet.

As to picking used helmets up off the internet, be advised that helmets take a beating, generally when they're NOT on someone's head. DOI found a LOT of our "loaner" helmets were cracked, or otherwise compromised. So, be careful what you buy.

The most common used helmets out there are the SPH series helicopter helmets. Those havea a tendency to crack around the bulges on the sides of the helmet that accomodate the earcups.

MTV

Keep in mind SPH stands for Sound proof helmet it was designd to reduce noise and later became more crash worthy. I do know part of it is the high freq noise created by the transmissions in the modern turbine helo's. The Air Force has ejection seats and helmets are required. Some Army fixed wing pilots (King Air Type) do not wear helmets.

I wasn't going to enter this tread as it is a personal decision and one can wrap them selves in bubble wrap (non flamable of course) if they wish. I would never laugh at someone with a helmet. Again it is a personal choice.

Now that I think about it, I do believe we had a thin layer of bubble wrap in the helmet liner which was used to avoid hot spots. Some one please correct me if I am wrong.

Take care all,
Tom

kevbert wrote:There has to be a similar cheap, lightweight helmet out there that is fireproof. I'm not going to pay $1000 for a brain-bucket when I could make my own out of fiberglass with a leather suspension system for at least $900 less than that! Does anyone have any ideas for a cheap helmet from some other sport or discipline that could work here?

We ordered these (scroll down the page to the A-Alpha Half Shell (Peltor, Sordin, LS, DC)) to wear in the back of the helicopter in my current job because there was a need to wear a headset. They are pretty comfortable, light, and you can mount night vision goggles on the front (anybody doing any blackout ops in the backcountry?) and a light or camera on the side.

TomKatz wrote:Now that I think about it, I do believe we had a thin layer of bubble wrap in the helmet liner which was used to avoid hot spots. Some one please correct me if I am wrong.

Take care all,
Tom

Tom, you are correct. The fitting process for the SPH is to microwave the bubble wrap TPL, put it in the helmet hot, put the helmet on, and put your head up against a wall for about five minutes. I always got hotspots on my forehead with the bubble wrap TPL. When I went to the Zeta Liner from Oregon Aero the hotspots went away.


Brett

I just ordered one of those oyster on the half-shell helmets mentioned in the post above... for much less than the cost of a fly-in lunch I had to give it a try since they claim it will fit with light speed’s.

I'll post a non impact review when it arrives.

Thanks, Brett! For $54 that looks just about perfect! That's the first cheap helmet I've ever seen that looks like it will work with my headset.



It's a good thing I didn't buy the other one I was thinking about!

Oldcrowe, hey hurray up and get yours and report back! If it works with Zulos, I will order one two. Did you order any of the options? I would need a visor if that is an option.

I think you could buy a visor like this one, cut and sand it to fit if necessary, and glue or screw it on.

http://www.amazon.com/Pryme-Full-Face-Helmet-Visor/dp/B000C15FUC