Backcountry Pilot • Hole in Southwest Plane

Hole in Southwest Plane

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Hole in Southwest Plane

So, most of you probably heard about this Friday night.

I'm almost calling BS on this ABC News article reporting the plane descended from 36,000 feet to 19,000 feet in just one minute. That's a steep 17,000 FPM descent :shock: Is that even possible in a Boeing 737? I would think 5,000 FPM is pretty dang steep for that plane and can not even imagine even 10,000 FPM :-k

From ABC News:
The jet plunged from 36,000 to 19,000 feet in just one minute. Within five minutes, it reached the safer altitude of 11,000 feet before landing safely at Yuma Marine Corps Air Station/International Airport at 4:07 p.m. Friday.



From ABC News:
(YUMA, Ariz.) -- The ceiling of a Southwest Airlines plane out of Phoenix tore open in mid-air Friday, prompting a sudden loss of cabin pressure, a rapid descent and an emergency landing at a military base in Yuma, Ariz.

"My husband who was sitting right underneath this could look up and see a hole in the roof of the plane, and could see the sky up there, which was a little disconcerting," passenger Sandra Haros told KTAR, an ABC News Radio affiliate in Phoenix.

Southwest Airlines reported no customer injuries aboard Flight 812, but said a flight attendant suffered a "minor injury upon descent."

The Southwest flight, a Boeing 737, had taken off from Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport around 3:45 p.m. local time, bound for Sacramento, Calif., with 118 passengers on board.

Flight attendants had just taken drink orders when passengers reported hearing loud pops. Soon, the roof opened up. Astonished passengers described a gaping hole, perhaps three to four feet long and a foot wide, right next to the luggage compartment.

The plane suffered a rapid decompression, oxygen masks popped out and the plane went into a dive, according to passengers and officials. The Southwest pilots radioed air traffic control, declared an emergency, and began a rapid descent -- quickly diving to a lower altitude so passengers would be able to breathe on their own.

The jet plunged from 36,000 to 19,000 feet in just one minute. Within five minutes, it reached the safer altitude of 11,000 feet before landing safely at Yuma Marine Corps Air Station/International Airport at 4:07 p.m. Friday.

What caused the hole in the plane's fuselage was not immediately clear. The National Transportation Safety Board said it was launching a formal investigation into the incident, and that an "in-flight fuselage rupture" led to the drop in cabin pressure aboard the plane.

Southwest Airlines said Saturday that it will take 81 planes out of service to inspect them for metal fatigue. The airline operates nearly 550 aircraft.

Boeing and the FAA also were investigating.

Copyright 2011 ABC News Radio



Here's the link:
http://abcnewsradioonline.com/national-news/hole-forces-southwest-plane-to-make-emergency-landing.html

Here's the tracking of the flight on Flightaware.com
Image

And a link to the track Log
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA812/history/20110401/2225Z/KPHX/KNYL/tracklog
Last edited by 58Skylane on Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hole in Southwest Plane

That would have have been one hell of a ride. 17,000fpm is 168 knots straight down :shock: :shock: :shock:
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Re: Hole in Southwest Plane

blackrock wrote:That would have have been one hell of a ride. 17,000fpm is 168 knots straight down :shock: :shock: :shock:


If the plane maintained a 500 mph true airspeed, and 17000 feet per minute descent, the angle would only be about 23 degrees. That would seem pretty extreme compared to normal, though.

I wonder if the pilot slowed down or kept his speed at normal cruise? With a big hole in the fuselage, a further rip would be a concern, but I don't know how much the crew knew about the condition of the plane while still airborne.

I hope more details will get into public domain. I'd love to learn more about this.

tom
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Re: Hole in Southwest Plane

Savannah-Tom wrote:
blackrock wrote:That would have have been one hell of a ride. 17,000fpm is 168 knots straight down :shock: :shock: :shock:


If the plane maintained a 500 mph true airspeed, and 17000 feet per minute descent, the angle would only be about 23 degrees. That would seem pretty extreme compared to normal, though.

I wonder if the pilot slowed down or kept his speed at normal cruise? With a big hole in the fuselage, a further rip would be a concern, but I don't know how much the crew knew about the condition of the plane while still airborne.

I hope more details will get into public domain. I'd love to learn more about this.

tom


Looking at the tracking log and graph, the plane appears to have maintained about 412 kts for that one minute drop from 36k feet to 19k feet. :-k
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Re: Hole in Southwest Plane

Crazy! I guess it's a good thing they practice quick donning procedures and rapid decent. I look and see TUC is at that alt.
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Re: Hole in Southwest Plane

Normally emergency descents are done as close to the MMO/VMO red line as possible, that gets the highest rate of descent. The 17,000 FPM being reported is probably using radar returns which gives a pretty wide window on the exact time, lots of rounding off. 10,000 + FPM is quite possible in most jets. The Boeing has BIG spoilers so I would say they may have gotten to somewhere around 15,000 FPM for a couple of dozen seconds. At lower altitudes, when VMO replaces MMO as the speed limit, they would have had to pitch up a bit to not overspeed causing a reduction in the descent rate. At 15,000 FPM that would have happened within 45 seconds or so.
Even in jets capable of cruising at FL 430 the whole exercise in the simulator, from bang to leveling off at 10,000 ft., is over in 3 minutes.
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Re: Hole in Southwest Plane

porterjet wrote:Normally emergency descents are done as close to the MMO/VMO red line as possible, that gets the highest rate of descent. The 17,000 FPM being reported is probably using radar returns which gives a pretty wide window on the exact time, lots of rounding off. 10,000 + FPM is quite possible in most jets. The Boeing has BIG spoilers so I would say they may have gotten to somewhere around 15,000 FPM for a couple of dozen seconds. At lower altitudes, when VMO replaces MMO as the speed limit, they would have had to pitch up a bit to not overspeed causing a reduction in the descent rate. At 15,000 FPM that would have happened within 45 seconds or so.
Even in jets capable of cruising at FL 430 the whole exercise in the simulator, from bang to leveling off at 10,000 ft., is over in 3 minutes.


I don't know jack about jets and that's a great explanation. Thanks for the insight. I won't call BS on that above story then.

Another perfect example why people should always wear their seat belts while seated in those airlines. You just never know with crap is going to hit the fan :shock:
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Re: Hole in Southwest Plane

madpilot wrote:Crazy! I guess it's a good thing they practice quick donning procedures and rapid decent. I look and see TUC is at that alt.


Time of Useful Consciousness (TUC)

18,000' 20 to 30 min
22,000' 10 min
30,000' 1 to 2 min
40,000' 15 to 20 sec
50,000' 9 to 12 sec

(taken from "Bsic flight physiology" Reinhart, R.0. MD 3rd edition, 2008. p 61)
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Re: Hole in Southwest Plane

At the higher flight levels....

...one has about 8 to 12 seconds of useful consiousness.


RAPID DECOMPRESSION:

1. Don Oxygen mask
2. Establish communication(with the other pilot)
3. Extend speed brakes
4.Power Levers to idle
5. Begin decent at MMO(max mach)VMO(max indicated airspeed)
6. Declare emergency with ATC
7. Attemp to control depressurization
8. Monitor for further aircraft damage
9. Advise flight attendants and passengers
10.. Level off at 10,000 ft. or 2,000 ft. above terrian.

In reality the first 5 items are done simultaneously. After the immediate action memory items and stabilized.... then the captain should call for the written check list to be read. The average pilot will be decending within 10 seconds of recognizing the decompression. You don't wait for ATC clearance. You are coming down no matter what. The concept is to get the airplane down where the passengers can breathe within 3 minutes.

Remember only the pilots have pressure oxygen. That is necessary to breathe at high altitude as the air pressure is so low that one cannot inhale normally. Indeed all internal bodily gasses will excape in a couple of seconds! :shock: The passengers do not have pressure oxygen. The flight attendants and passengers will pass out quickly if the pilots delay.

As an earlier poster stated....no way the aircraft came down at 17,000 ft. per minute for a full minute. Yes....perhaps for a few seconds until the pilots achieved MMO. Also as stated the typical airliner or high altitude jet will lose over 25,000 ft. within 3 minutes when properly executed. Once the cabin altitude reaches about 25,000 MSL
...the immediate danger to the passenger is basically over.

How critical the decent is depends upon how large the hole is in the aircraft. This manuver is practiced many times during initial training and every time one comes back for recurrent training. The SWA pilots did everything by the book. That is what the job is all about.

Bob
Last edited by z3skybolt on Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hole in Southwest Plane

double post
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Re: Hole in Southwest Plane

So...they don't carry duct tape?
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Re: Hole in Southwest Plane

z3skybolt wrote:At the higher flight levels....

The flight attendants and passengers will pass out quickly if the pilots delay...

Once the cabin altitude reaches about 25,000 MSL the immediate danger to the passenger is basically over...

How critical the decent is depends upon how large the hole is in the aircraft....


Bob a couple of questions as I'm currently studying flight physiology for my major.

Passenger passing out isn't really so bad, less pandemonium in the cabin (IMHO)

How mush immediate danger is there? At the physiological deficient zone complication is hypoxia, trapped gases, and evolved gases exist but are they long term? You might pass out but you’ll regain conscious lower.
If I’m no mistake, how critical the decent is not only depends on how large the hole is but the type of decompression (yes I know I’m arguing semantics, but still this size of the hole that causes the decompression to what it evolves to. We don’t know if the hold in Southwest started small, nor do we know the type of decompression though I’m guessing explosive) Explosive, Rapid of Subtle decompression. IMHO subtle is the most dangerous, but may not require such a steep decent rate.
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