Points well taken. This is one of the big problems with the structure that we've sort of adopted in our flying:

First, we work on our PPL. Teaching is typically taught by someone who finished their PPL maybe a year ago, and just barely has dry ink on the Commercial and CFI. That person, if they are participating, can teach you the basics.

Now, you go fly.

Two years pass: Oops, time for a Flight Review. But, I'm in a hurry, cause I want to go flying. Hey, I've been flying twenty hours a year, so I'm good, right? All I really need is an hour of ground and an hour of flight. Find an instructor (like the previous guy, cause we know him, and he's not very demanding--we're in a hurry) and we're outta here.

Or, alternatively, you can find someone who has actually done the sort of stuff you would like to do, and tell them to give you as much instruction as it takes to do it right. Generally, that won't be all that much.

Now, you go out there on your own, and some things happen that you aren't real sure about, so you call that experienced instructor, and he or she explains to you what just happened.

Every year, you go back to that experienced instructor, or another equally experienced instructor, and get some instruction in something you haven't done before, INCLUDING at least an hour or two of ground for every hour of dual instruction. PAY for the ground school--its worth it, from the right person.

Keep picking at it, and keep finding different folks to fly with. Any time someone tells you to do something some way or other ask them to explain why. If they can't explain why, maybe, just maybe, they don't know what they're talking about. Or maybe someone told them this sometime, and they bought it.

Always ask why, and try to understand the issues and dynamics you are dealing with.

Don't learn by rote, in other words.

Keep going back. You can always learn some new skill or technique.

Every little insight makes you a better pilot, and better able to deal with the situation when the chips are down.

And, as you obviously already are, stay conservative. This is supposed to be fun, after all, and being afraid, or having to pay for a rebuild of your pride and joy isn't much fun.

There are folks out there who can offer lots of insights. Seek them out, and pick their brains. It isn't all done in the air.

And, fly safe.

MTV

Well said, Jr.

Since Jr joined this site, I've monitored his progress both from reading his posts and by chatting with him a few times a week on Instant Messenger, and I feel we've become good friends even though we've never actually met in person. He's been a solid contributor here, and has written 50% of our articles.

I really appreciate having him around, because while he is a greenhorn in the big picture, he 1) Is still ahead of me in both experience and hours, and 2) He flies the exact same airplane I do. For these reasons I feel like he represents my very near future in flying, and has broken a lot of ground that I am about to, which is a nice form of foresight I guess.

I think that's what the whole fraternity of aviation is all about-- There's always someone with more experience to go to. That's why forums like this exist. We all looked up to our instructor when we were primary students, and continue to do so in all likelyhood. I was fortunate enough to have an instructor who was 7 years older than me, who became a good friend and big brother figure. I still ring him on the cellphone whenever I have a flying question. I suspect we all have someone that we go to for answers. This site could be that source for a few as well, I know I use it for that.

As far as taking the bull by the horns and learning on the fly, no pun intended, I think it is a crucial part of becoming a true PIC. It's like when you take your first solo XC: You've got the knowledge and the information necessary for a successful flight, the only element missing is the confidence that comes from having done it without relying on anyone else.

<phone rings>
Well, I hope I can get back on track here, I just took a 30 min phone call from my mom. As I was saying, once you have the training and knowledge to operate in the backcountry, doing it with clear objectives and taking responsibility for your own safety will likely produce a much more competent pilot in the end. For me, I simply worry that I'll repeat the common mistakes others have made, and people will say "he should have known better."

All this is from the standpoint on this side of the fence, having only gotten my PPL in early 2003. Perhaps I'll have a different point of view in 10 years. Good points Mike on using BFRs to tackle new and unfamiliar territory. I am guilty of scenario #1, where I took the easy way thru with my aerobatics instructor. The next one I'll be a little harder on myself and find someone who will challenge me.

Good topic guys.
You're right about backcountry instructors being few and far between. Heck, a lot of the guys don't really understand what it is. For you Washington folks, Amy Hoover over in Ellensburg seems to be pretty sharp. Loni H. is over in Oregon this time of year, and I 've read nothing but good about Lori MacNichol, as well. Even with people like that you still have to challenge anything they say that doesn't make sense to you.
I just want to add something that might be of comfort, might not. Stop worrying about people looking down at you if make a mistake. First of all, no matter what you did, someone will take exception to it. When you make a mistake, accept it, minimize it, learn from it, and go on. More experience only means you've survived more mistakes. So, take care of your loved ones, be aware of the risks, and do things full speed.

JRcubbuilder,

In your above post you demonstrated good judgement which is one thing I respect most in a pilot regardless of their experience level.

Years ago when I first learned to fly I flew with several different instructors until I found the one that impressed me most. Seemed the younger low time CFI's were overflowing with technical babbling that I'm not sure they even fully understood. The one I chose happened to be a very experienced bush pilot of Alaska as well as the jungles of Indonesia with 20,000+ hours. The guys way of teaching was not only very challenging but made learning fun and interesting.

After I successfully demonstrated I knew the basics by passing my PPL checkride, we went to the next level of flying mountains, short unimproved strips etc. This additional training was invaluable and would have taken me much longer to learn on my own. I still think back to those days with fondness and appreciation.

In my flying environment I feel very confident with about any situation I come across. That's not to say I always land at the strip or spot I had in mind but means I am comfortable with my judgement when things don't feel right and I say not today.

As with anything, as your experience level increases, things that once seemed hard will look easy. Getting to that point safely is the key.

My thoughts; When I passed my checkride for the PPL
back in nineteen hundred and !@$%^, I like everyone
else was held to the practical standards book. Those standards
should be considered as bare minimums, and if you pass
the ride, they issue you an airman's certificate and poof, off you
go, but really all you have is a license to learn. The ones who
excercise good judgement (and/or are lucky) get to learn from their
mistakes over the years. The ones who don't are the ones we always
get to go pick up when they crash/burn...

That being said, I know a few pilots who won't fly at all unless
it's clear blue skies and calm winds. They won't "push the
envelope" at all. That's fine I guess, but I'm thinking you won't
learn a great deal about flying doing that... So I think there is something
to be said for methodically thinking things through and trying new
things. Maybe take smallish steps, and work your way up to the
"bigger" stuff. FWIW, that's what I like to do....

Last time I camped at JC, we watched someone in a Beech Sierra
fly up the middle of the canyon and attempt to turn around on
a go-around. He hit the side of the canyon and he and two young
boys perished in the crash. A year later, we lost a good friend
in the same area. I think some folks buy the "Fly Idaho" book,
thinking that a trip like that might be fun, so they load the airplane
up and off they go! We saw a Mooney from the SF Bay area make (3)
attempts at landing @ JC... Went around twice, darned near ran
off the end of the runway on the 3rd attempt... I can't help thinking
about the fact that JC *shouldn't* be that hard... It's big, long, and
as long as you show up before noon, it should be no big deal. I can
only imagine what happens to folks who can barely get into JC when
they flip the pages in the Fly Idaho book and try their hand at some
of the more challenging strips!

I've helped recover probably 3 dozen wrecked aircraft over the last
several years, so that in itself has been a learning experience for me.
Seeing what happens when things go to hell in a handbasket tends
to give one quite a stern "wake-up-call".

JrCB, I couldn't agree more.

I was pretty darn lucky. I grew up watching my folks fly our airplane in the backcountry. They learned about specific flying techniques, nuances of the interesting places we went, mountain flying, and "how to camp with your airplane" from other back country pilots we knew. They went into new places with somebody who had BTDT before they tried it with me and my brother on board. After learning as much as they could and minimizing the risks by doing so, They (pardon the phrase) just did it.

One thing I will say about my Dad especially. He flew his airplane A LOT. He has owned the same airplane since 1972. He flew it EVERY WEEKEND for years and years and years. He could (then and still can today) fly that airplane in every situation just by the "feel". Example: He arrived at home in the pattern one evening a few years ago. Flew the entire 300+ mile leg home, a full pattern, rolled onto final and just "happened to glance" at the ASI. It read "0". A mud dawber had conveniently plugged the pitot tube inlet back in Las Cruces. He mentally kicked himself for not installing the "pitot bootie" and also for not noticing the problem A LOT sooner. But he just kindof went "hmph" and landed without even batting an eye.

I guess my point is that we should all endeavor to know our airplanes that well.

About Risk Management: I am going to plagerize from a good friend of mine. These are his three rules for staying alive in the back country (or anywhere else you might find yourself piloting an airplane, for that matter):

3.) You know you are about to crash when you let others make decisions for you.

2.) You know you are about to crash when you start relying on super pilot skills to salvage a situation brought on by poor decision making.

1.) The number one reason that will guarantee you will be the first one to arrive at the crash site: You know you are about to crash when you are down to your last option.

I could go on for hours on each one of those points, but I think I'll save it for an "article" someday soon.

Matt

I have heard it said that you can develop good decision-making skills by experiencing the results of poor decision-making skills.

Eric

I've heard a similar version:

Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from poor judgement.

Just wondering, where is JC that was mentioned above about flying into? Thanks,

Tim

JC=Johnson Creek, Idaho.

Good Thread.

One more saying you might have heard before: The cockpit is no place for an optimist. I'm fond of that one myself, and it functions as a cross-check for when I'm thinking of trying something near my personal limits. That and the picture I carry of my wife and baby girl.

I don't know if that's actually a proper response to the original question or not- maybe this is: I find a wide gap between the typical, day-to-day flying experiences and flying expertise of folks who routinely fly in mountains or over remote terrain, and those who don't. Neither one is better- it's all aviation, and it's all good, but one setting is probably much more applicable to the types of flying you aspire to. I feel very lucky that I learned from veteran bush pilots, in my own back yard. The pilots I run with every day are a wealth of hard-won information, that I strive to absorb. I think that's a great opportunity that I might not have if I lived in the flat lands, or urban areas. If you want to become a ski-racer, you move to a mountain town. If you want to absorb mountain flying, you'd do well to head for that environment. I know we're not all footloose ski bums, so the analogy is not perfect- but consider traveling for your next BFR. I've read of folks on this site coming to AK or ID, etc... for float ratings, mountain flying clinics, and so on. If it's in the budget, and fits the schedule, consider making a vacation out of it.

I've heard that there are bell curves in the accident rates, that correspond to how many hours a pilot has. I forget what they are supposed to be, but for instance, say there are a lot of accidents around 500 and 1000 hours that are attributed to pilots disproportionately thinking that they are hot sh*t at those stages. Just being aware of that trap, regardless of what the hour- ranges are, can be a helpful reminder to not get cocky.

Anybody know what those intervals are thought to be?

There is an old saying," Experience is a good teacher, but the test comes first and the lessons come later". If you wreck your plane in the experience mode, that is an expensive lesson.
I learned a lot of my backcountry flying the hard way. I like Jr. couldn't afford to take an instructor with me, so I went cold turkey. The first time to Red's Horse Ranch, the first time to Johnson Creek, Sulphur Creek, all in my1953 170 B. I had some apprehension on those first flights. I had ridden in to Big Creek with a friend once before I made that trip. I didn't try to land at the Owyhee strip for quite a while after I had my PPL in hand. I think you have to go when you feel comfortable with what you are about to undertake. Just My $.02. Bob

Jr.CubBuilder, Great Thread!
I can really relate to what you have said here today. I am doing similar stage by stage prep solo in order to prepare myself.for the mountains. But I am taking Lori McNichol"s, Basic mountain flying course.
I admire your "Red Flag" thinking process of not being comfortable and asking for inputs. I really like the phrase:
"You know you are about to crash when you let others make decisions for you.
" or you pressure yourself to go against your "Red Flags".
I believe we always have to wear 2 hats when flying, student and instructor because it is always a learning experience.
Learn at your on pace, enjoy the ride and have FUN. The best advice about flying I ever got was "manage your comfort zone and expand it over time. " After all most of the time we are SOLO!
I am not sure there is some sage advice an instructor can give a new PPL regarding the future except to trust your instincts and fly the airplane at all times?

All the above posts are correct. Without repeating the above consider a few things I have learned.

In my job there was a time up until about 7 years ago that you got 25 drops and off you go. Learn on your own. There are ALOT of GOOD pilots out there that are dead. We would average 2-3 killed a fire season. "Good" only gets you so far, judgment is what keeps you alive.

Now the instruction is 2 seasons long with multiple instructors on your A#$ about every detail and judgment call. The training is written in blood from others before us and the fortunate few who have made it this far.

You are right, instruction can only go so far. Teaching judgment and forcing yourself not to be mission driven is the hardest lesson to learn.

Another humorous saying that goes around, "I would rather be lucky than good"!!!